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I _think_ that what John is getting at is that the Introibo, etc. are not properly part of the Liturgy itself, and are preparatory prayers of the celebrant and the ministers. The "Aufer a nobis" and the "Oremus te" are private prayers of the celebrant. The Introit is a sung proper entrance hymn. Therefore, it _could_ be argued that the actuall beginning of the Liturgy (qua Liturgy) itself was the singing of the Kyrie. In other words, that there was no obvious "distinct beginning." This, as opposed to the distinct beginning of the Eastern Liturgy, Euloghmenh h Basileia tou PatrV kai tou Uiou kai tou ¢Agiou PneumatoV nun kai aei kai eiV touV aiwnaV twn aiwnwn.

Terrill
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John B. Wickstrom wrote:

medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

Thank you, John, for that information. Though I'm interested in your comment
that the texts I quoted are part of "the vesting and prayers before Mass".
When I was a boy and "served mass", we processed out and these were the
first words that were dialoged at the foot of the altar between the
celebrant and server. I always presumed that was the opening of the mass.
The Introit, as you say, a variable text, was sung by the choir during that
opening dialog and then, as I recall, the priest, having finished the
dialogue, mounted the altar and repeated the introit from the missale. Was
there a different point of beginning in the Sarum Rite (or elsewhere?)
JBW

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Briggs
>Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 2:16 PM
>To: John Wickstrom
>Subject: Re: Ordinarium missae
>
>medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion
>and culture
>
>John B. Wickstrom wrote:
>>
>> Could anyone tell me whether the Tridentine formula opening the
>> Ordinary of the Mass dates back to medieval times? Perhaps how early?
>>
>> In nomine patris, et filii, et spiritui sancti. Amen.
>>
>> Introibo ad altare dei ad deum qui laetificat juventutem meam. etc.
>>
>
>Well, it's in the Sarum Use, which is as medieval as they come!
>
>But "Introibo ad altare dei ad deum qui laetificat juventutem
>meam." is part of the Vesting and Prayers before Mass, whereas
>there were several different Introits in use.
>
>John Briggs
>
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