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Along similar lines - the new high speed trains seem to be as environmentally unfriendly as cars http://domino.lancs.ac.uk/info/lunews.nsf/I/ 5148A8A844F095FB80256EBA004AA26D J. On Tuesday, June 22, 2004, at 01:18 AM, Simon Batterbury wrote: > I don't know the prices since I seem to have become an expat these > days, > but the best read for critical comment on the insanity of UK transport > policy is A-B magazine http://www.atob.org.uk/ - no punches are spared > for the private transport operators that have replaced the nationalized > system of 10-20 years ago, and put the prices up. > > Buses are hardly cheap around London either, but the fare structure is > better than it was. > I managed to get an article published in one of the American political > science journals, delaing more with the joys of urban bike use > (currently accounting for less than 3% of all journeys in London, but > rising again thanks to the congestion charge) > http://www.u.arizona.edu/~batterbu/annals.htm > > There is room for a volume on alternative transportation solutions, > following some of the arguments made by John Whitelegg, Nicholas Low, > Hugh McClintock, among others abotu sustainable urban transportation. I > still regard bikes as the ultimate "critical" solution to the > difficulties of urban transportation. Examples I have already of > progressive back-to-cycling movements around the world include > Copenhagen, London, Tucson AZ, Toronto, and Melbourne. > > -- > Dr Simon Batterbury > Currently in UK > http://geog.arizona.edu/~web/simon.htm > > From mid July 2004: > lecturer, SAGES > University of Melbourne > 221 Bouverie Street > Melbourne Vic 3010 > Australia > [log in to unmask] > http://www.geography.unimelb.edu.au/ > > > > Quoting Automatic digest processor <[log in to unmask]>: > >> There are 2 messages totalling 187 lines in this issue. >> >> Topics of the day: >> >> 1. Bus and train fares please (2) >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 08:31:38 EDT >> From: Hillary Shaw <[log in to unmask]> >> Subject: Bus and train fares please >> >> -------------------------------1087648298 >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> >> So New Labour wants motorists to use public transport not their cars. >> Here i= >> n=20 >> Scunthorpe it costs =A31 for a 3 mile journey, one way, to Ashby. >> Fuel costs= >> =20 >> for a car driver should work out, even with petrol at 80p a litre, at >> around= >> 15p=20 >> a mile, unless the car's engine is clapped out. Add on 10p a mile >> for=20 >> depreciation and another 10p a mile for servicing and spare parts >> costs, and= >> we have=20 >> 35p a mile. I have not included insurance and road tax, probably >> another 20p= >> a=20 >> mile, because these are sunk costs once the car is bought. However >> public=20 >> transport is inevitable slower than the private car, except in big >> cities li= >> ke=20 >> London, not least because it isn't door-to-door.=20 >> This situation isn't going to change much, because if petrol costs >> were even= >> =20 >> doubled, through massive tax increases, apart from the political >> flak,=20 >> probably unsurvivable from whatever government did it, wages pressure >> would=20= >> mount,=20 >> and wage costs and general inflation would drive up the cost of >> public trans= >> port=20 >> too. We could saturate cities with bus lanes and parking restrictions >> , but=20 >> at the cost of harming the general economy, and diverting more >> shoppers to=20 >> out-of-town retail parks where such restrictions don't apply. >> The time differential between car and bus is probably around 5 >> minutes per=20 >> mile; even if we value driver's time at the Minimum Wage, this >> amounts to ar= >> ound=20 >> 4p a mile. And drivers tend to be wealthier.higher earners, so this >> is=20 >> probably an underestimate. Add on the convenience factor for car >> drivers of=20= >> safety,=20 >> privacy, carrying capacity, etc. and 'effective' car costs are >> probably arou= >> nd=20 >> 25p a mile - in other words under 25p a mile is what public transport >> would=20 >> have to offer to be a viable alternative. >> What I'd like to know is what other expensive public transport routes >> other=20 >> crit geog members know of. Maybe if we can get enough examples >> together we=20 >> should sent them to Tony Blair and ask him how he intends to meet >> congestion= >> and=20 >> pollution targets. >> >> -------------------------------1087648298 >> Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> >> <HTML><HEAD> >> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; >> charset=3DISO-8859-1"> >> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4207.2601" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD> >> <BODY id=3Drole_body style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; >> FONT-FAMILY:=20= >> Arial" bottomMargin=3D7 leftMargin=3D7 topMargin=3D7 >> rightMargin=3D7><FONT i= >> d=3Drole_document face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2><FONT >> id=3Drole_docu= >> ment face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2><FONT id=3Drole_document >> face=3DA= >> rial color=3D#000000 size=3D2> >> <DIV>So New Labour wants motorists to use public transport not their >> cars. H= >> ere in Scunthorpe it costs =A31 for a 3 mile journey, one way, to >> Ashby. Fue= >> l costs for a car driver should work out, even with petrol at 80p a >> litre, a= >> t around 15p a mile, unless the car's engine is clapped out. Add on >> 10p a mi= >> le for depreciation and another 10p a mile for servicing and >> spare part= >> s costs, and we have 35p a mile. I have not included insurance and >> road tax,= >> probably another 20p a mile, because these are sunk costs once >> the car= >> is bought. However public transport is inevitable slower than the >> private c= >> ar, except in big cities like London, not least because it isn't >> door-to-doo= >> r. </DIV> >> <DIV>This situation isn't going to change much, because if petrol >> costs were= >> even doubled, through massive tax increases, apart from the >> political flak,= >> probably unsurvivable from whatever government did it, wages >> pressure would= >> mount, and wage costs and general inflation would drive up the >> cost of= >> public transport too. We could saturate cities with bus lanes and >> parking r= >> estrictions , but at the cost of harming the general economy, and >> diverting=20= >> more shoppers to out-of-town retail parks where such restrictions >> don't appl= >> y.</DIV> >> <DIV>The time differential between car and bus is probably around 5 >> minutes=20= >> per mile; even if we value driver's time at the Minimum Wage, this >> amounts t= >> o around 4p a mile. And drivers tend to be wealthier.higher earners, >> so this= >> is probably an underestimate. Add on the convenience factor for car >> drivers= >> of safety, privacy, carrying capacity, etc. and 'effective' car >> costs are p= >> robably around 25p a mile - in other words under 25p a mile is >> what pub= >> lic transport would have to offer to be a viable alternative.</DIV> >> <DIV>What I'd like to know is what other expensive public transport >> routes o= >> ther crit geog members know of. Maybe if we can get enough >> examples tog= >> ether we should sent them to Tony Blair and ask him how he intends to >> meet c= >> ongestion and pollution >> targets.</DIV></FONT></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTM= >> L> >> >> -------------------------------1087648298-- >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 14:40:06 +0100 >> From: David McKnight <[log in to unmask]> >> Subject: Re: Bus and train fares please >> >> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. >> >> ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C4560B.50922300 >> Content-Type: text/plain; >> charset="iso-8859-1" >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> >> Hill >> >> Did you see the article in the IoS last week? Report referred to >> leaked = >> govt document which plans for train services to be cut and a rise in >> the = >> cost of tickets. So am not sure if New Labour really wants motorists >> to = >> ditch their cars in favour of public transport. >> >> David >> >> ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C4560B.50922300 >> Content-Type: text/html; >> charset="iso-8859-1" >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> >> =FF=FE<=00!=00D=00O=00C=00T=00Y=00P=00E=00 =00H=00T=00M=00L=00 = >> =00P=00U=00B=00L=00I=00C=00 = >> =00"=00-=00/=00/=00W=003=00C=00/=00/=00D=00T=00D=00 >> =00H=00T=00M=00L=00 = >> =004=00.=000=00 = >> > =00T=00r=00a=00n=00s=00i=00t=00i=00o=00n=00a=00l=00/=00/ > =00E=00N=00"=00>=00= >> =0D=00=0A= >> =00<=00H=00T=00M=00L=00>=00<=00H=00E=00A=00D=00>=00=0D=00=0A= >> =00<=00M=00E=00T=00A=00 = >> > =00c=00o=00n=00t=00e=00n=00t=00=3D=00"=00t=00e=00x=00t=00/ > =00h=00t=00m=00= >> l=00;=00 = >> =00c=00h=00a=00r=00s=00e=00t=00=3D=00u=00n=00i=00c=00o=00d=00e=00"=00 >> = >> > =00h=00t=00t=00p=00- > =00e=00q=00u=00i=00v=00=3D=00C=00o=00n=00t=00e=00n=00= >> t=00-=00T=00y=00p=00e=00>=00=0D=00=0A= >> =00<=00M=00E=00T=00A=00 = >> =00c=00o=00n=00t=00e=00n=00t=00=3D=00"=00M=00S=00H=00T=00M=00L=00 = >> =005=00.=000=000=00.=002=003=001=004=00.=001=000=000=000=00"=00 = >> > =00n=00a=00m=00e=00=3D=00G=00E=00N=00E=00R=00A=00T=00O=00R=00>=00=0D=00 > =0A= >> > =00<=00S=00T=00Y=00L=00E=00>=00<=00/ > =00S=00T=00Y=00L=00E=00>=00=0D=00=0A= >> =00<=00/=00H=00E=00A=00D=00>=00=0D=00=0A= >> =00<=00B=00O=00D=00Y=00 = >> > =00b=00g=00C=00o=00l=00o=00r=00=3D=00#=00f=00f=00f=00f=00f=00f=00>=00=0 > D=00=0A= >> =00<=00D=00I=00V=00>=00<=00F=00O=00N=00T=00 = >> =00f=00a=00c=00e=00=3D=00V=00e=00r=00d=00a=00n=00a=00 = >> > =00s=00i=00z=00e=00=3D=002=00>=00H=00i=00l=00l=00<=00/ > =00F=00O=00N=00T=00= >>> =00<=00/=00D=00I=00V=00>=00=0D=00=0A= >> > =00<=00D=00I=00V=00>=00&=00n=00b=00s=00p=00;=00<=00/ > =00D=00I=00V=00>=00=0D= >> =00=0A= >> =00<=00D=00I=00V=00>=00<=00F=00O=00N=00T=00 = >> =00f=00a=00c=00e=00=3D=00V=00e=00r=00d=00a=00n=00a=00 = >> =00s=00i=00z=00e=00=3D=002=00>=00D=00i=00d=00 =00y=00o=00u=00 = >> =00s=00e=00e=00 =00t=00h=00e=00 =00a=00r=00t=00i=00c=00l=00e=00 = >> =00i=00n=00 =00t=00h=00e=00 =00I=00o=00S=00 =00l=00a=00s=00t=00 = >> =00w=00e=00e=00k=00?=00 =00=0D=00=0A= >> =00R=00e=00p=00o=00r=00t=00 =00r=00e=00f=00e=00r=00r=00e=00d=00 = >> =00t=00o=00 =00l=00e=00a=00k=00e=00d=00 =00g=00o=00v=00t=00 = >> =00d=00o=00c=00u=00m=00e=00n=00t=00 =00w=00h=00i=00c=00h=00 = >> =00p=00l=00a=00n=00s=00 =00f=00o=00r=00 =00t=00r=00a=00i=00n=00 = >> =00s=00e=00r=00v=00i=00c=00e=00s=00 =00t=00o=00 =00b=00e=00 = >> =00c=00u=00t=00 =00=0D=00=0A= >> =00a=00n=00d=00 =00a=00 =00r=00i=00s=00e=00 =00i=00n=00 >> =00t=00h=00e=00 = >> =00c=00o=00s=00t=00 =00o=00f=00 =00t=00i=00c=00k=00e=00t=00s=00.=00 = >> =00S=00o=00 =00a=00m=00 =00n=00o=00t=00 =00s=00u=00r=00e=00 >> =00i=00f=00 = >> =00N=00e=00w=00 =00L=00a=00b=00o=00u=00r=00 >> =00r=00e=00a=00l=00l=00y=00 = >> =00w=00a=00n=00t=00s=00 =00=0D=00=0A= >> =00m=00o=00t=00o=00r=00i=00s=00t=00s=00 =00t=00o=00 = >> =00d=00i=00t=00c=00h=00 =00t=00h=00e=00i=00r=00 =00c=00a=00r=00s=00 = >> =00i=00n=00 =00f=00a=00v=00o=00u=00r=00 =00o=00f=00 = >> =00p=00u=00b=00l=00i=00c=00 = >> > =00t=00r=00a=00n=00s=00p=00o=00r=00t=00.=00<=00/ > =00F=00O=00N=00T=00>=00<=00= >> /=00D=00I=00V=00>=00=0D=00=0A= >> > =00<=00D=00I=00V=00>=00&=00n=00b=00s=00p=00;=00<=00/ > =00D=00I=00V=00>=00=0D= >> =00=0A= >> =00<=00D=00I=00V=00>=00<=00F=00O=00N=00T=00 = >> =00f=00a=00c=00e=00=3D=00V=00e=00r=00d=00a=00n=00a=00 = >> > =00s=00i=00z=00e=00=3D=002=00>=00D=00a=00v=00i=00d=00<=00/ > =00F=00O=00N=00= >> > T=00>=00<=00/=00D=00I=00V=00>=00<=00/=00B=00O=00D=00Y=00>=00<=00/ > =00H=00T= >> =00M=00L=00>=00=0D=00=0A= >> =00 >> ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C4560B.50922300-- >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> End of CRIT-GEOG-FORUM Digest - 18 Jun 2004 to 19 Jun 2004 >> (#2004-112) >> ********************************************************************** >> >