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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture V.K. asked: >>As for Seraphim I have been trying to figure them out for years. >>Where did you get the winged serpent idea? B.E. responded: >I am identifying them with the fiery serpents of Numbers 21:6 ff, >Deuteronomy 8:15, Isaiah 14:29 and Isaiah 30:6. I realise that not >all scholars believe we are talking about the same beasts, but Otto >Kaiser certainly does so in his commentary on Isaiah 1-12: According to Isa 14:29 a seraph is an evil born of evil [viper] born of the root of evil [snake]. There's nothing about a seraph being "fiery." In context, Isa 30:6 places the seraph as a creature of the desert/South [NGB - Negev] and as another of the dangers of the South. The only fiery thing around is the heat of the South. It was 44 degrees celsius a week ago in the Northern Negev and 48 in spots farther south... so, the heat is fiery, but that doesn't make the creatures who live there "fiery." It just makes them creatures of dry, hot places. Num 21:6 doesn't say anything about "fiery" either; it just says snakes and seraphim bit the people and many died. And in Deut 8:15 we're recounting the traverse of the big wasteland where there were "snake, seraph, and scorpion and thirst because there was no water"... again, fiery heat, but nothing fiery about the seraph or the snake or the scorpion. We really must distinguish between a vision -- where out of the ordinary creatures occur -- and between the main text of the MT, where there are _no_ mythical creatures. Not one. The zoology of the OG is notorious for its ignorance of many creatures mentioned in the MT. For instance, Greek "dracon" is not a "dragon"; it's Greek bright-eyed serpent/Latin house serpent and it's a translation of Hebrew "tanin," crocodile, and so on -- and let's not get into the many different terms for the plague locust... The progression in Isa 14:29 is snake->viper->seraph. The simplest level of taxonomic classification is visual and by what we would call Family, which is to be expected without microscopes and lab tools. Isaiah 14:29 lists our modern classifications of Suborder Serpentes by taxonomic Families: Superfamily Colubroidea (snakes) -> Family Viperidea (vipers) -> ??Family Elapidae (cobras, coral snakes, and relatives). The "seraph" of these passages may be the small and deadly member of the Family Elapidae, the desert krait. In any case, whatever a "seraph" in Num 21:6, Deut 8:15, Isa 14:29, and 30:6 is, it is NOT a mythological fiery winged serpent. We are not talking about the same creatures. Like, VK, I haven't the faintest idea what the seraphim of Isaiah's vision are supposed to be. Back to lurking, RISA -- Dr. R.I.S.Altman, co-coordinator, IOUDAIOS-L [log in to unmask] ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html