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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture Andr--Yves Bourg-s <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > I agree with you, Christopher : at that time, Chartres isn't a "family name", but rather a geographical one. yes, though i've never really understood at what point we can safely say that the former was true, for any given fellow. i suppose when we have an "X de Chartres" who wasn't even born in and never went to Chartres. as when we have an "Y the Black", son of "X the Black" who had red hair. but, it's kinda difficult to know when that might be the case. > As Hardouin was in charge of schools in Fougères around 1070-1080, I was asking myself if the name "de Chartres" could be an indication about the "cursus" of Hardouin, i.e. that Hardouin, before coming (back ?) to Fougères was a student or/and a magister in episcopal scolae of Chartres ? ahh, i'd forgotten you had that _scholasticus_ (is that the word used?) of Fougères link. well, first off, you want to look in l'abbé Clerval's classic _Les Ecoles de Chartres_ for this Harduin. i've come to the conclusion that virtually *no*one who could *possibly* be connected to Chartres and its schools escaped Clerval's fine net. which is not to say that Clerval can be trusted in all things, of course (see Richard Southern's critique of his work) ; but if your H. de C., scholasticus Fougères appears in any printed source which Clerval had access to, i'd bet Dollar$ to Donut$ that he's in Clerval's book. curious story re Clerval's reliability : a "Bouchard du Puiset" appears in a later 12th c. charter, among other members of the LePuiset family (Viscounts of Chartre). my memory is dim, but in the *printed* version of the witness list of the charter he appears to be a Chancellor and to have a son, "Bouchardus cancellarius et X filius eius" --or something like that. there is, i believe, one other appearance of a Chancellor named Bouchard, and he is a Chancellor in the chapter of the cathedral, about the same time (1160s?). for the pious Clerval, of course, it would be a great scandale for *that* Chancellor to also have been a Daddy, so, when discussing the Bouchard who appears in the charter, he ventures the opinion that there were *two* Bouchards, one a Chancellor of the Chapter and another a "Chancellor of the Count" --with no documentation offered for the existence of the latter, naturally, just with the assurance that only such a "secular" Chancellor could have had a child, while that would not have been possible for a Chancellor of St. Mary's. it turns out that the original charter survives and, if one controls the published version of it against that one, one finds that the editor made a transcription error, the original text clearly reading [in Latin], "N du Puiset, et Bouchard chancellor, et X fil**ii* eius". i.e., Bouchard was the younger son of X. i must have proofread a couple of hundred charters in the Chartres archives against their published versions, and that is about the only really significant mistake i ever came across. but, Clerval had another solution to this little paternity problem. >There was a strong link between Breton people (from Rennes and Dol territories) and Our Lady of Chartres yes, there are quite a few folks in the Chartres charters with the cognomen "brito" and some some placenames which might be referring to a Briton population (Andre Chedville talks about them a bit in his exhaustive --though not completely reliable-- _Chartres et ses Campagnes_). >especially after Berthe of Blois married duke Alan of Brittany, and until the death of Berthe in 1085. i've never looked into the "geopolitical" aspect of things, just kept my nose buried in the "grass roots". best from here, christopher Christopher Crockett Christopher's Book Room P.O. Box 1061 Bloomington, IN 47402 Books on Medieval Art and Architecture: http://dogbert.abebooks.com/abe/BooksBrowsePL?ph=2&lowcatid=10514201 Medieval History: http://dogbert.abebooks.com/abe/BooksBrowsePL?ph=2&lowcatid=10514133 Régionalisme Français: http://dogbert.abebooks.com/abe/BooksBrowsePL?ph=2&lowcatid=11185819 Other Subject areas: http://dogbert.abebooks.com/abe/BooksBrowse?vendorclientid=807329&page=CLIENT ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html