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Hello, I've been following this discussion with fascination. I teach both Spenser and Tolkien (although not together yet), and find that students tend to come to Tolkien with diminished expectations and leave surprised by what they've found. This may change as I begin to get fans of the movies, but up until now I've taught English majors and honours who've already developed a contempt for popular literature. Cultural studies courses often seem to give students tools for the study of popular literature without giving them any chance for considering that literature in more traditional ways or asking whether any of it holds up to closer examination. One question I have relates to the argument of Tom Shippey's latest book on Tolkien (which has a good section on scholarly animosity to Tolkien's works). Shippey looks in detail at Tolkien's treatment of themes like good and evil. I think classical virtues like friendship and courage, and Christian ones like mercy can be added to the list. How much are we prepared to see and think about such themes in Spenser, but find them quaint or odd in a modern writer who doesn't adopt typical modern irony or scepticism? What my students found is that Tolkien's apparent simplicity on many issues gives way to complexity on further study. His treatment of race is a good example. The good race / bad race dichotomy is surely complicated by having every bad race descend from a good one--orcs are elves corrupted. The wizards are equivalent to angels and just as capable of falling, as we see in Saruman. The fellowship itself is created out of multiple races each displaying their own prejudices which threaten the quest. What Tolkien shares most strikingly with Spenser is the generous spirit which can imagine a hero tested to the breaking point, who fails, but who nevertheless triumphs through grace. Christine ********************** Dr. Christine Cornell Department of English St. Thomas University Fredericton, NB E3B 5G3 [log in to unmask]