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Ken, I believe you should be part of the discussion but I do understand the need for reflection. Do not be too uncomfortable with the emotional content of this topic, all of us except for Mr. Spock (Startrek) perhaps, can use emotions as thinking tools as well as logic. Both cues to a deeper understanding. The complexities of unwinding hundreds of years of gender thinking is not an easy task, at then end perhaps we can all be more fully human. You know my thoughts about off list emails, but you are right about some things not being part of a list. It is I think ok to tell the list that one feels assaulted, hurt, and whatever else might be present in feelings. This is a statement only about how one feels not about the guilt or motivation of another. It doesn't take a genius to understand the level of emotion present in this topic for lots of list members. I think that how well we can acknowledge the emotional content of our own functionality the better we will be able to make choices which foster our own and others sustainability. Gandhi said something to the effect that, Satayagraha (which I understand to be the seeking of truth - the seeking not the finding as truth has many facets), Satayagraha will mean that violence becomes impossible. Regards Jan Jan Coker C3-10 Underdale University of South Australia +61 8 8302 6919 fax +61 8 8302 6239 Relativity teaches us the connection between the different descriptions of one and the same reality Albert Einstein