Tim Trent on 09 September 2004 at 12:40 said:-
> I know you are addressing this to me. But I didn't understand a word.
> Except about haircuts. Those are a useful metaphor for those
> who disagree
> with our way of thinking, or who are outside the social norm,
> are they not?
My apologies for not responding earlier, the thread regarding 'Employee
manual records: Interaction between DPA and FOI' and 'Employee manual
records: Interaction betwe en DPA and FOI' seemed a more finely focused and
beneficial one to continue with at the time, due to the issues it raised
regarding secret personnel records.
The message was not addressed to you specifically, it was in response to
some of the concepts raised within that particular thread, and which seemed
relevant to the group as a whole as one view of DP and its purpose which
seemed to collate the thrust of the quotations contained within the posts
made by Simon and yourself. The relevance was an attempt to identify some
approaches to privacy which DP practitioners need to be aware of in order to
be effective.
My allusion to haircuts was more a reference to an historic method of
cutting hair with a pudding basin and scissors, which results in a haircut
reminiscent of a monk.
> Now, if only I could tell whether you are telling me that you
> agree with me
> or disagree with me, or "neither of the above" then I'd know
> how to answer
> you ;)
If I clarify that my views of privacy are not yet completely formed, but do
take fair cognisance of many other views (one of which caused your response,
another, in the other thread, seeks to identify why the context of
'organisational privacy' in maintaining an area available for uncontrolled
records by various means, is seen as so important) would that help.
Ian W
> -----Original Message-----
> From: This list is for those interested in Data Protection
> issues [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Tim Trent
> Sent: 09 September 2004 12:40
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Fingerprinting schoolkids
>
>
> I know you are addressing this to me. But I didn't understand a word.
> Except about haircuts. Those are a useful metaphor for those
> who disagree
> with our way of thinking, or who are outside the social norm,
> are they not?
>
> By the way, further research shows that the quote I quoted
> about the good
> pastor may well have been textually flawed. That does not
> prevent it from
> being intellectually sound though
>
> Now, if only I could tell whether you are telling me that you
> agree with me
> or disagree with me, or "neither of the above" then I'd know
> how to answer
> you ;)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: This list is for those interested in Data Protection issues
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ian Welton
> Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 12:33 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [data-protection] Fingerprinting schoolkids
>
> There seems to be an inherent degree of confusion between
> privacy and the
> public/private divide in many of the statements quoted.
>
> Merely because data protection forges a link between the
> public/private
> divide and privacy, drawing ALL of life into the political
> decision making
> arena and therefore subject to political whims, merely
> indicates a certain
> success of that particular social group and their current
> ideas regarding
> the necessity for different forms of governance/coercive mechanisms.
>
> Your statement on compliance raises the question - Is the ICO
> political?
> That question could equally be - Is public life political?
>
> A better question might be - what form of ideology does the
> social group
> comprising the ICO's office follow as a group in their public work?
>
> Issues regarding individual autonomy/decision
> making/personality seem to get
> involved as attempts to change individual ideology via
> various governance
> mechanisms intrude unchecked on the public individual.
> Dependent on role,
> influence and position it would even be possible for intimacy
> not to be seen
> as sacrosant in some circumstances, with respect and ethical
> issues merely
> supporting intrusion in what could be termed a private sphere.
>
> Now let worry commence when people start appearing with what
> are judged as
> bad haircuts, after all they may not be a fashion trend after
> all, and will
> undoubtedly be subject to the vagaries of personal
> perspectives. Where is
> that pudding basin! :-)
>
> Ian W
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: This list is for those interested in Data Protection issues
> > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Tim Trent
> > Sent: 09 September 2004 11:28
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: Fingerprinting schoolkids
> >
> >
> > Of course you will still find you are overwhelmed by the
> "if you have
> > nothing to hide you have nothing to fear" brigade. The Jews, of
> > course, had nothing to fear, nor any reason to hide, until
> a nasty man
> > with a bad haircut came along.
> >
> > Muslims in today's paranoid society "have nothing to fear
> and nothing
> > to hide", except, of course, that they are Muslim and are this
> > obviously all terrorists and to be hunted down and destroyed (if you
> > believe US Rednecks).
> > Homosexuals have, in the UK, had nothing to fear nor
> anything to hide
> > since December 1967, except, of course, total discrimination in many
> > workplaces.
> >
> > "They came for the Communists,
> > and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Communist.
> >
> > Then they came for the Jews,
> > and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.
> >
> > Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I didn't speak
> out because
> > I wasn't a Trade Unionist.
> >
> > Then they came for the Catholics,
> > and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Catholic.
> >
> > Then they came for me,
> > and there was no one left to speak out for me."
> >
> > - Pastor Martin Niemoller
> >
> > And yet we will be labelling people in interesting and
> strange manners
> >
> > http://www.joric.com/Conspiracy/1H-arm.htm
> >
> > George Orwell wrote 1984 with great wisdom. The TV Show is rightly
> > called "Big Brother", yet we seem not to notice.
> >
> > Have any of you noticed that the Data Privacy regimes in old
> > totalitarian states mean that they are first to be approved
> as SAFE to
> > transfer data to from the EEA? They understand the abuses that a
> > rotten regime can make of data.
> >
> > Oh, some of you will trivialise this. And this group was not set up
> > as a "fighting group", simply as a learned discussion list. So
> > perhaps this will be deemed "out of place". And yet privacy is
> > privacy. And if we do for our own organisations what we
> are meant to
> > do then it is up to us and people like us who have the real
> knowledge
> > to make sure that abuses do not happen.
> >
> > So, back to the school: I remain certain that a complaint
> to TICO is
> > necessary.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: This list is for those interested in Data Protection issues
> > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Simon Howarth
> > (WSL)
> > Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 9:38 AM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: [data-protection] Fingerprinting schoolkids
> >
> > >> Why not save time later and bar code everyone at birth :-)
> >
> > >That is logical!
> >
> > I used to be very much for ID cards, but now my views are changing
> > fast. As I read this I immediately thought of the Jews
> being tattooed
> > with a number for identification. Whilst I know the remark was
> > jocular, this thought just plain frightens me!
> >
> > Simon Howarth.
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