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Dear all, My e-mail is a follow up to Jan's suggestion about checking 1998 IWGP meeting website for (subfossil) grape morphology. I found lots of well preserved grape pips, along with numerous charred grains of cultivated barley and wheat etc., on Ljubljansko barje (Ljubljana Moor) in Central Slovenia. The pips varied quite substantially in their sizes and shape, so I used Stummer's index (although I was aware about its unreliability) to learn more details about the distribution of their variety. The index suggested that the majority of pips show characteristics of wild grapes (Vitis vinifera ssp. sylvestris), although a few of them fall into a category of cultivated species. The result was expected since the radiocarbon date of the pips is app. 4780 uncal BP (-the oldest evidence for vine in Slovenia-) and corresponds to dates of artefacts that place the settlement/pile dwelling, where the pips were recovered, into Eneolithic period. In any case, I wonder what would be other approaches that can be used for distinguishing among different types of grape pips. I looked at the suggested website, but couldn't find enough information on some references that I would like to read - for example papers by Ruth Pelling and Marijke van der Veen, by Daničle Martolini and Christiane Jacquat, and by Mordechai Kislev. Thus I would like to ask if somebody can provide more details about them and/or related papers, or any other ideas concerning grape seeds/pips identification. I would also appreciate the advice on how to get older papers, such as Facsar (1970; 1973) and Terpó (1976; 1977). Thank you very much and best regards, Marjeta At 03:14 AM 11/4/2004, you wrote: >Dear all, > > >I remember that in the 1998 IWGP meeting in >Toulouse there was plenty of discussion about >grapes. >See http://www.socarchsci.org/9809n.htm by >Delwen Samuel, with a section on grapes, stating >"The taxon of the meeting was grape." > > >Greetings, > > >Jan > >-- >Jan Bastiaens > >Flemish Heritage Institute >Koning Albert II-laan 19 bus 5 >B-1210 Brussel >Belgium > >tel ++ 32 2 553 18 32 >fax ++ 32 2 553 16 55 >[log in to unmask] > Marjeta Jeraj, PhD Department of Botany, Center for Climatic Research University of Wisconsin - Madison 430 Lincoln Drive Madison, WI 53706 U.S.A. tel.: (+1) 608 262 2279 fax: (+1) 608 262 7509 e-mail: [log in to unmask]