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Gunner, Democracy comes in many forms and there is no requirement of exclusion although there may be the habit of exclusion. Exclusion is often used as a mechanism to disenfranchise those who otherwise could be viable and contributing members of a society. There are questions one might ask about the viability of systems which allow partial and exclusionary democracy to make decisions that affect people well beyond those who are allowed to participate. Is a yammerocracy a democracy where people are allowed to express unpopular, unpleasant or disagreeable ideas? If it is then I guess I would prefer to live in a yammerocracy. Thanks for pointing that out. Also I must say that the non-yammerocracies I have lived in seem to allow some people to make decisions for many which I think is pretty much the same as talking until one view has prevailed but without the talking. I hope I am not supposed to interpret your second to the last paragraph as meaning that people should not feel obliged to take responsibility for their actions. Thanks for the humour, I enjoyed it. Regards, Jan Jan Coker C3-10 Underdale University of South Australia +61 8 8302 6919 fax +61 8 8302 6239 Relativity teaches us the connection between the different descriptions of one and the same reality Albert Einstein I would submit, however, that the discussion has made clear to anyone who is still awake that the use of a false identity (or at least the use of a false identity followed by being honest about having done so) will have a series of bad results, some "official" and most not. The social pressure to avoid these results is great. Whether such social pressure is democratic or in what sense it is democratic may be debatable but it is the closest thing to democracy that is plausible on this forum so calls for Official Rulings are de facto anti-democratic demands. </last rant on this subject> I hereby join the ranks of those who have sworn to avoid Cindy-related threads including "What we should do since Cindy's untimely death in a horrible train accident and what sort of flowers are appropriate" threads. I invite you to join us. Gunnar ---------- Gunnar Swanson Design Office 536 South Catalina Street Ventura California 93001-3625 USA +1 805 667-2200 [log in to unmask] http://www.gunnarswanson.com