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There is a delete button. I know, because I often use it. On a PC laptop it's bottom right, just in from the arrow keys. Mark At 02:48 PM 4/11/2003 -0700, you wrote: >Randolph, > >I have to say that I do think David's posts have been so discouraging to >me. I was on poetryetc for a while and then signed off, in part because of >a sense of weariness with David's persistently and underhandedly >aggressive posts. Someone I think in this discussion suggested there was a >passive/agressive element involved, and I think so too at times. When I >was replying to Dave's request for evidence of my feeling that his work >had elements of sexism in it, I became aware that there have been several >"episodes" like this, the discussion of the Dufy poem, the implication of >Dave's having the goods on her and the comments on the literary scene, or >even long ago Erminia Passsananti leaving the list because David presumed >to speak to her as if he were Alison's representative. So I do think there >are these continuing episodes that always for whatever reason center >around women writers and issue of gender. I came back onto the list >recently but was considering leaving it again this last week. In part >because after my discussion of David's elements of sexism in his posts, a >discussion which was carefully impersonal on my part, and which became >more and more >personal on his, I wasn't sure it was worth the trouble. Also I agreed to >accept Alison's plea for backchanelling and indeed have posted little on >any subject since, while David continued to reply and expanded the >argument to include a few short posts with Liz and this much longer >quarrel with Alison. I do think that there is sometimes an atmosphere on >the list which veers toward harassment. This all began with my noting >David's shit poem, Dominic's in the ass poem, and Gregory's girl of Essex >joke and wondering what was going on? it seemed to me to veer upon >creating a hostile atmosphere, an atmosphere of sexual harassment, and so >it would be evaluated and responded to in many companies that would have >to worry about legal action. I don't know if other women on the list feel >this way, but I do notice too that usually there are very few women >posting at all about anything, and surely that's not without significance. > >Best, > >Rebecca > >Rebecca Seiferle >www.thedrunkenboat.com-------Original Message------- >From: wildhoney <[log in to unmask]> >Sent: 04/12/03 12:04 AM >To: [log in to unmask] >Subject: Re: the list > > > > > Plenty to think about here Geoffrey. > >One of the main anxieties I had was that David's posts, albeit in good >faith, were having the effect of discouraging others from posting. It's >beginning to look like I was way off target here. It seems rather that his >posts are catalysts instead. I really was worried that, particularly >certain >women members, were being put off by the combative nature of certain of >his >replies. This does not seem to be the case. > > >In reply to Sarah, yes, I agree. Rules and review status and so on. Hmm. >They don't seem appropriate. Long ago, Lawrence Upton I think it was, made >the statement that really the list is self-regulating, which is probably >the >way to go. > >Apologies to the list and to Dave in particular. > >best > >Randolph > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Geoffrey Gatza" <[log in to unmask]> >To: <[log in to unmask]> >Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2003 2:22 AM >Subject: Re: [POETRYETC] the list > > > > Alison and Randolph seem to alway lable any referencfe that doesn't suit > > them to be harrassment !!! And when they skewer Dave, whether by >accident >or > > not, they seem to not see the evil of their ways. Good gravy. Can't you >too > > find a way to be owners of this list and members without stepping on >toes? > > Or this this question harrassment too, no doubt it will be. > > > > I too am beginning to question why I am even on this list! There are >real > > poetic conversations on other lists but this one houses Henry Gould, >Kent > > Johnson, and Dave "makin' it interesting' B. This seems to make up for >the > > lack of productive management. Maybe a break is in order for Alison too. > > > > > > Geoffrey Gatza > > editor BlazeVOX2k3 > > > > __o > > _`\<,_ > > (*) / (*) > > > > <a target=_blank href="http://www.blazevox.org">www.blazevox.org</a> > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "david.bircumshaw" <[log in to unmask]> > > To: <[log in to unmask]> > > Sent: Friday, April 11, 2003 7:10 PM > > Subject: Re: the list > > > > > > > Alison wrote: > > > > > > "I'm afraid that I agree with Trevor's analysis of passive aggression; >and > > > that David's > > > "defence" of me in that particular instance backfired, as I don't > > > find Frederick's posts offensive, even if I deeply disgree with them, > > > but I did find David's description of me subtly demeaning, even if it > > > was superficially well intended. Taken in tandem with at least half > > > a dozen unwelcome personal f/c references to me recently, it's coming > > > close to harrassment (I do not say it is _actually_ harrassment). I > > > do not wish to go further into this, as it is actually personal" > > > > > > > > > I'm very sad that you feel so Alison, I do think that this is a >classic > > case > > > of e-mail texture problems, even though we've met each other, >something > > has > > > gone wrong in the lines of communication. Misunderstandings, > > > misunderstandings, that's all we ever meet, so to speak. > > > > > > > > > All the Best > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > David Bircumshaw > > > > > > Leicester, England > > > > > > Home Page > > > > > > A Chide's Alphabet > > > > > > Painting Without Numbers > > > > > > <a target=_blank >href="http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/index.htm">http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/index.htm</a> > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Alison Croggon" <[log in to unmask]> > > > To: <[log in to unmask]> > > > Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2003 12:01 AM > > > Subject: Re: the list > > > > > > > > > I am very sorry a casual and therefore a discussion with no attempt > > > to be fair went f/c. I am quite aware that at his best and most > > > thoughtful, Dave can be a stimulating member of the list. > > > > > > At 6:32 PM -0400 4/11/03, Sarah Peters wrote: > > > >The idea that people who obviously love the list , and are not > > > >intentionally trying to ruffle feathers, are put on review status is >the > > > >kind of thing that makes me consider "resigning." > > > > > > This is what I meant by "between a rock and a hard place". I too > > > don't think disciplining anyone is a good idea. I'm afraid that I > > > agree with Trevor's analysis of passive aggression; and that David's > > > "defence" of me in that particular instance backfired, as I don't > > > find Frederick's posts offensive, even if I deeply disgree with them, > > > but I did find David's description of me subtly demeaning, even if it > > > was superficially well intended. Taken in tandem with at least half > > > a dozen unwelcome personal f/c references to me recently, it's coming > > > close to harrassment (I do not say it is _actually_ harrassment). I > > > do not wish to go further into this, as it is actually personal. > > > > > > Best > > > > > > A > > > -- > > > > > > > > > Alison Croggon > > > Editor > > > Masthead Online > > > <a target=_blank >href="http://au.geocities.com/masthead_2/">http://au.geocities.com/masthead_2/</a> > > > > > > Home page > > > <a target=_blank >href="http://www.users.bigpond.com/acroggon/">http://www.users.bigpond.com/acroggon/</a> > > > > > > > > > > >