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Dear Rosan and All, Thanks for your post and your suggestion. I just got the automated note on your post, so I've been reading it. For those who do not know the site, this is the project organized by Wolfgang Jonas titled The Basic Paradox. Wolfgang wrote a pair of texts to which he invited response from several designers, scholars, and theorists. I wrote a response. Project participants and site visitors were invited to respond to the responses. Wolfgang's two papers are available on the web under these titles: Jonas, Wolfgang. 2001b. On the Foundations of a "Science of the Artificial." URL: http://home.snafu.de/jonasw/JONAS4-49.html Date accessed: 2001 December 26. Jonas, Wolfgang. 2001c. The Paradox Endeavor to Design a Foundation for a Groundless Field. URL: http://home.snafu.de/jonasw/JONAS4-54.html Date accessed: 2001 December 26. They also appear on the site under the titles: Wolfgang Jonas On the Foundations of a "Science of the Artificial" Sept. 9, 2002 Wolfgang Jonas The paradox endeavour to design a foundation for a groundless field Sept. 9, 2002 My response appears under the title: Ken Friedman Problem and Paradox in Foundations of Design / Problem und Paradox bei den Grundlagen des Designs and the rejoinders follow under the titles: Rosan Chow Problem and Paradox in Foundations of Design Ken Friedman reply to Rosan Chow Rosan Chow second reply to Ken Friedman Ken Friedman second reply to Rosan Chow Artemis Yagou Problem and Paradox in Foundations of Design / Problem und Paradox bei den Grundlagen des Designs Keith Russell Problems and Paradoxes - adding to comments Ken Friedman Replies to Artemis, Keith, and Rosan John Calvelli Problem and Paradox in Protocol Ken Friedman Response to John Calvelli John Calvelli Problem and Paradox, Period. Ken Friedman Problem and Paradox, Comma ... Rosan Chow Comments on the Basic-Applied-Clinical model It's possible to start with Rosan's latest note, but starting with Wolfgang's two papers and my response will help you to contextualize the whole thread. I've been following the transformative learning thread with great interest. At a few points I've thought of an idea or two to add. The thread has been so rich and deep that I wanted to read and think a bit more before adding a couple of notes together with a few suggestions for reading. Much of what has been written makes good sense to me, and I've been learning much from the expert and well informed contributions to this thread. I will return before long to respond to Rosan's notes, and to add a few thoughts to the thread on transformative learning. Best regards, Ken -- Ken Friedman, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Leadership and Strategic Design Department of Leadership and Organization Norwegian School of Management Visiting Professor Advanced Research Institute School of Art and Design Staffordshire University