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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture Let me complain this thread has gotten unwieldy and unreadable. First the subject line which after I clicked on Reply looks like the above. Second, the inclusion of so many replies, contra-replies, replies to replies, etc. that the number of little angled brackets would be five deep if this were a real reply. Third, the inclusion of so much of the previous message that the listserv's footer may now be read four times, with a Yahoo group footer for good measure. I suppose there's a conversation there somewhere but it's getting to be impossible to tell who said what. Maybe listfolk can spend some time editing previous correspondence to the minimum. No reply necessary! Al Magary ----- Original Message ----- From: "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]> To: <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 3:45 AM Subject: [M-R] Re: [M-R] Re:_[M-R]_Constable_response > I'm agree also, Mr. Jeffrey Woolf, in fact the Freud's approach was > psychiatric, more than phylosophic or sociological. He want to take > care of ills. But a shape of psychologic researche is present in many > medieval theologic or mystical sources, also if we don't have a > psychology as a science. The medievals make the man's "analysis" at the > light of Revelation, and of Greek phylosophers. The major problem is > the connection between the soul and God. Best. Claudio Attardi > > medieval- > religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture > > > > On Freud- Freud's attitude toward religion was very nuanced. He was > > evidently very Jewishly literate. His inner sanctum contained a copy o > f > > the Talmud and other Hebrew classics. So, being an atheist did not mea > n > > that religion did not profoundly affect his model. > > > > On Jung, I agree fully with Marjorie. > > > > Jeffrey Woolf > > > > On Sun, 4 Aug 2002, Marjorie Greene wrote: > > > > > medieval- > religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture > > > > > > Dear Claudio, > > > Somehow Freud has gotten mixed up in this. I'd like to > > > point out that, yes, Freud was an atheist and believed > > > religion was a symptom of neurosis. It is precisely on > > > this point that he and Jung differ and was, in large > > > measure, the cause of their break. For Jung, a lack of > > > connection with God (and I'll admit his "definition" > > > of God was very slippery) was the principal cause of > > > emotional strife. And God was to be found by looking > > > within oneself. His theory of individuation (there's > > > an ideal version of each person to which that person > > > must constantly strive) is quite compatible with > > > spirituality of whatever age. I'm reminded of Jung > > > every time I read Augustine. > > > MG > > > --- "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]> > > > wrote: > > > > When I speak of spiritual experience, I want to > > > > suggest an experience > > > > simply different to a psychological one. So I’m > > > > agree when someone said > > > > that there are many differences between our social > > > > or intellectual > > > > structures and the Middle Age. This is clear.But > > > > the spiritual > > > > experience (and I remember that Freud was > > > > unbeliever) concerns the > > > > relation between one person and God (the Christian > > > > Godin this case, I > > > > speak about the European Middle Age), as two > > > > persons, with their > > > > ontological structures, always the same, despite the > > > > history ‘s > > > > changes. So the psychological experience concerns > > > > the historical > > > > singular experience(il vissuto, in italian), while > > > > the spiritual > > > > experience concerns the relation between God and > > > > man, enlightened by > > > > the Revelation light. This, according to the spirit > > > > of medieval man, > > > > and our spirit also. Best, and thank you for this > > > > interesting > > > > discussion. Claudio Attardi > > > > > medieval- > > > > religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion > > > > and culture > > > > > > > > > > Dear Marjorie. > > > > > Let's put things into context. The > > > > conversation took place in the > > > > spring > > > > > of 1977 when Duby was just beginning to make waves > > > > in the US. So it's > > > > really > > > > > unfair to judge Professor Constable's comments by > > > > the state of scholar > > > > ship > > > > > today. Second, he is a wonderful scholar and a > > > > very open thinker from > > > > whom I > > > > > learned worlds, so I think the harshness of your > > > > comment is out of pla > > > > ce. > > > > > Third, not being a Foucault aficionado, I > > > > personally am very cautious > > > > about > > > > > 'psycho' anything when it comes to other periods. > > > > Gurevitch has persua > > > > ded me > > > > > that the emotional and intellectual structure of > > > > medieval society was > > > > very > > > > > different than ours. Each generation's neuroses > > > > were dealt with differ > > > > ently. > > > > > So, as Barry Rubin has recently argued, Freud may > > > > have beenirrelevant > > > >to > > > > > the needs of earlier periods. OTOH, I do suspect > > > > that living within a > > > > more > > > > > or less integrated belief system provides more > > > > emotional support and h > > > > ence > > > > > less emotional illness, than does life in an > > > > industrial, libertarian > > > > > society. > > > > > > > > > > Jeffrey Woolf > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Marjorie Greene" <[log in to unmask]> > > > > > To: <[log in to unmask]> > > > > > Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 2:24 AM > > > > > Subject: [M-R] Constable response > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > medieval- > > > > religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion > > > > and culture > > > > > > > > > > > > Your question to Giles Constable was thoughtful > > > > and > > > > > > very interesting. It's too bad his response was: > > > > 1) > > > > > > non-responsive; and 2) uninformed. Perhaps it > > > > was > > > > > > years before psycho-history, > > > > psycho-anthropology, > > > > > > psychoanalytical art- and literary criticism, > > > > etc. > > > > > > were fully accepted areas of learned research. > > > > It > > > > > > bespeaks a true fear of the topic, one that is > > > > gaining > > > > > > in its ability to pique interest. My students > > > > > > frequently wonder about the effects of child > > > > rearing > > > > > > practices on the (medieval) children in question > > > > and I > > > > > > have no decent informed response. Perhaps I just > > > > don't > > > > > > know where to look... > > > > > > MG > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > > > Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better > > > > > > http://health.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ******************************************************************** > > > > ** > > > > > > To join the list, send the message: join > > > > medieval-religion YOUR NAME > > > > > > to: [log in to unmask] > > > > > > To send a message to the list, address it to: > > > > > > [log in to unmask] > > > > > > To leave the list, send the message: leave > > > > medieval-religion > > > > > > to: [log in to unmask] > > > > > > In order to report problems or to contact the > > > > list's owners, write t > > > > o: > > > > > > [log in to unmask] > > > > > > For further information, visit our web site: > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ******************************************************************** > ** > > > > > To join the list,send the message: join > > > > medieval-religion YOUR NAME > > > > > to: [log in to unmask] > > > > > To send a message to the list, address it to: > > > > > [log in to unmask] > > > > > To leave the list, send the message: leave > > > > medieval-religion > > > > > to: [log in to unmask] > > > > > In order to report problems or to contact the > > > > list's owners, write to: > > > > > [log in to unmask] > > > > > For further information, visit our web site: > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better > > > http://health.yahoo.com > > > > > > ******************************************************************** > ** > > > To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME > > > to: [log in to unmask] > > > To send a message to the list, address it to: > > > [log in to unmask] > > > To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion > > > to: [log in to unmask] > > > In order toreport problems or to contact the list's owners, write to > : > > > [log in to unmask] > > > For further information, visit our web site: > > > http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html > > > > > > > ********************************************************************** > > To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME > > to: [log in to unmask] > > To send a message to the list, address it to: > > [log in to unmask] > > To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion > > to: [log in to unmask] > > In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: > > [log in to unmask] > > For further information, visit our web site: > > http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html > > ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html