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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture The following is a basic source for the institution of the Sacred College, largely dealing with the 11th cent. and earlier. Stephan Kuttner, "Cardinalis: the history of a >canonical concept," Traditio 3 (1945): 129-214. jw -----Original Message----- From: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Sarah Roark Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 2:30 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [M-R] cardinal red medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture <<> So far I haven't found any discrepancy between cardinals and > deacon-cardinals, etc. He just talks about 'cardinals' in > general. But he does mention how green, prior to the > sixteenth century, was the color of bishops, archbishops, and > patriarchs. In the late 16th century the color was changed to > fuchsia, or purple.>> Really, that late? Wild. ::files that in her oxymoronically-named Important Trivia file next to the bit about when Franciscan habits stopped being gray:: I *would* be interested in the information you mentioned on heraldic and vesture colors, BTW...:-) I remember coming across a book on Italian textiles and clothes of the Middle Ages/Renaissance -- forgot the title, darnit -- which made reference to a very specific color red, a dye called *chermisi*. If memory serves the dye was derived from some kind of beetle. Anyway, it was such a spiffy, expensive and high-quality red that the pope made it the official cardinals' red. I apologize deeply for not being able to remember enough of the details to be really helpful. I think this occurred sometime in the 15th century...I remember noting it was after the period I was researching. But a search on chermisi might prove fruitful (chermisi being the Italian spelling, I think it begins with a k in other spellings). This reminds me of something weird I'm seeing in a souvenir book I just picked up last week at the Palais des Papes in Avignon (rock on Avignon!). It looks like a period illumination -- I'm not hip enough to tell whether it's 14c or early 15c -- and unfortunately the specific source is not listed, it just says it's from the District Archives. In any case, it's a picture of Clement V holding consistory, and he has the usual gang of red-hatted cardinals about him, all looking very intent on whatever the subject of debate is. But although their hats are red, the illuminator has put their overgarments (forget the technical term, but it's the usual cardinal's overgarment pictured in medieval illos, so the cut is definitely correct) in different colors. Pink, blue, black, even green with some kind of goldwork trim. This is my roundabout way of asking -- is it a fact that these boys got to wear other colors, and if so, would that really have been okay in an official setting like consistory or was it more a feature of their everyday dress? (Their everyday ecclesiastical dress, that is.) Or was the illuminator taking liberties with color for illustrative purposes? Or was he just inhaling too many ink particulates that day? BTW, I've never had much luck finding in-depth resources on medieval cardinals, particularly Avignon cardinals (I mean aside from the books on the Avignon Papacy and the Schism, which don't go into too much detail on quotidian stuff). If anybody knows of anything really solid, preferably in English but I can struggle through French if necessary, do let me know! Many thanks... --Sarah Roark ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html