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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

Dear Colleagues, Here I am butting in again.  Regarding St. Denis, here is
what Bannister Fletcher has to say about it:

"The Abbey of S. Denis (c.1135-44), near Paris, was built by the Abbe' Suger
and is one of the few buildings in this  style (i.e. Romanesque) in the Ile de
France.  The Abbey Church is of great interest as the burial place of the
French kings.  The original choir and two internal bays still remain, and a
Gothic nave and transept (c.1231) have been wedged in between them.  The west
front includes an early instance of the use of the pointed arch, while the
eastern end, though still retaining many Romanesque features, is probably the
earliest truly Gothic structure.

The _Dictionary of Christian Antiquities_, London & Hartford, 1880, has a
rather lengthy entry for "Basilica"  which I shall cite in part:

"The use of the word "basilica" as meaning a church seems to haave arisen
gradually, for the anonumous pilgrim who, in 333,  wrote an itinerary from
Bordeaux to Jerusalem, when he says that a "basilica" had been built aat the
Holy Sepulchre by Constantine, adds the explanation, "id est dominicum."
Mabilon (Op. posthum., t, ii. p.355) says that it has been satisfactorily
shown that in the sriting of authors who wrote in Gaul in the 6th & 7th
centuries "basilica" is to be understood as meaning the church of a covent,
cathedral and parish churches being called "ecclesiae;" the writers of other
countries do not observe this distinction.

"Seven churches at Rome--S. Pietro in Vaticano, S. Giovanni Laterano, Sta.
Maria Maggiore,  Sta. Croce in Gerusaleme, S. Paolo fuori le mura, S. Lorenzo
in Agro Verano and St. Sebastiano, -- are styled basilicas by pre-eminence and
enjoy certain honorific privileges."

I would like to point out here that all these older churches are
architecturally basilicas, anyway.  Not having read Mabilon, I don't know the
reference to S. Pietro in Vaticano, but if he means the old St. Peters that
was torn down to make way for the present Renaissance church, then all seven
of the churches he mentions are basilican and usually referred to as "Early
Christian."  From this one might conclude, well yes, they were basilicas but
revered for their age and history in the holy city, and the name "basilica"
was simply appropriated at a later date to identify other venerable churches
which were not arcitecturaly basilicas.

To further confuse things, the citation continues:

"Basicula is used by St. Paulinus (Epist. xii, ad Severum) and by Avitus
Viannensis (Epist. vi.) for a chapel or oratory.

Finally, it addresses the issue of structures being built as a monument to
important persons:

"The word "basilica" is found in the Salic Law (tit. 58, c. 3,  4, & 5) in the
senes of a monument erected over a tomb, apparently the tomb of a person of
high rank.  With the Franks they appear to have been constructued of
wood......"

Mention of tombs stones resembling buildings being also used by the Franks.
This may explain or at least provide a clue to the

Thanks for the opportunity to write this.  I hope it adds something to the
discussion.  This is a very interesting list from which I profit a great deal
and enjoy very much also.  As I rarely have anything to contribute I though I
would make the best of this one.  yrs, t. ault

>===== Original Message From Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
culture  =====
>medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
>Marjorie Greene  wrote:
>
>>First, let me confess I didn't read to the end of your message.
>
>well, of course not.
>
>those last 12k are just there for show.
>
>"Fire for Effect," as they say in the Artillery, once the target is nicely
>bracketed.
>
>>Saint-Denis, if one is to believe *most* books
>
>i.e., the secondary literature?
>
>believable if traceable back to the primary sources (in this case,
>archeological evidence is as good as written sources).
>
>>treating of its history, was originally a... basilica!
>
>in definitions 1 and 2, i assume you mean --i.e., that the building itself
was
>"basilican" in *form* (or, perhaps, was thought to be such by some ancient
>writer who so characterized it thus --*which* writer, btw?).
>
>(now's about the time i wish i could find duCange on line, see what obscure
>sources he cites under his entry for _BASILICA_.)
>
>>"Built" by Sainte Genevieve over the supposed tomb of Denis in a cemetery of
>Catolacum
>
>?
>
>the original name of the romano-gaulish settlement?
>
>i don't think i've ever seen that one.
>
>>and, according to ctault's posting, probably requiring the pope's
>participation in its designation as such.
>
>NO
>
>that's not my understanding, at all.
>
>if some ancient source indeed refers to the building as a "basilica," it has
>nothing whatever to do with the modern use of that term in the Roman church.
>the place was --or was not-- a basilica because of it's architectural form,
>not because of anything any pope did or did not do.
>
>likewise, the modern designation of "basilica" has *nothing* whatever to do
>with the particular architectural form which a building takes (the thrust of
>CTAult's contribution), but is rather some sort of Papal designation, of
>relatively quite recent date, concerning *only* its *institutional* character
>and status among churches (note the distinction between "Greater" and
"Lesser"
>Basilicas in the CE article cited by someone else here recently).
>
>thus, a *totally* different question.
>
>>It was Dagobert who imported some Benedictines to care for the shrine and
>pray for his ever-blackening soul. The church thus became a basilical
>abbatiale.
>
>goodness, i don't believe i've ever, *ever* seen that wonderful
mongrelisation
>before:
>
>"basilical abbatiale"
>
>nicely blending languages, architectural terminologies and institutional
>status, all at once, with a very nice ring to it, as well.
>
>my hat's off to you on that one!
>
>"Confusion to the Bugslags," i say!
>
>and: "Pass the Bottle."
>
>>If we are speaking of the _current_ edifice, which replaced/enlarged a
>Carolingian S-D, then yes, it was "always" an abbatiale.
>
>right.
>
>well, ever since the monks were introduced.
>
>and, architecturally speaking, always will be, saecula saeculorum.
>
>and the "original" or Dagobertan structure may have also been a "basilica"
>(either in the sense that some ancient writer might have understood that term
>and used it to describe the building/church, or in the much more strictly and
>narrowly defined architectural sense of the term in current usage among Art
>Hysterians).
>
>the latter question we cannot know for certain, since we certainly cannot
>reconstruct that building's elevation, nor even, perhaps, its ground plan
with
>certainty (knowledge of both of which aspects are, to my mind, necessary for
>the application of such an architectural designation).
>
>>Depends on what the meaning of "is" is or of what "was" is ;-)))
>
>well, i don't know as to how i would go *that* far.
>
>it depends more on what the sense of "basilica"
>
>was.
>
>christopher
>
>p.s. out of consideration to some of our long-suffering list collegues who
>might be paying for their bandwidth by the minute, it's probably not a good
>idea to reproduce the *whole* of my already tediously long posts
>--already too lengthy for some to finish, i'm told-- in response to just a
>part of them.
>
>i'm sure Moma George would agree.
>
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