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Dear All, The conversation currently underway has unfortunately become a bit personal; with most - if not all - of the antagonism, being directed at Ian. The list is an international facility, and conversations take place on it as such. Just because someone else's country does things differently, does not justify some of the acidic comments recently. GB does things differently - mostly a few years behind everybody else - so it's interesting to hear such opinion. This subject is supposed to be being simply talked about, and definitely does not need antagonistic comments to enhance it: if someone else's opinion is different, so be it, just because it does not fully conform........ Ian has tried simply to demonstrate/show, not point, shove, or bulldoze. Whilst the subject is interesting, it is unfortunate it had to coincide with a NAMHO release. Just a small note. It seems that mineral collectors are coming in for some flack! Well, in some instances this is very true. As previously said about cavers etc., there are good ones and bad ones (in anything really - and this includes those interested in mines), but it is dealers and gatherers for same who are responsible for much of the real clearout 'damage' - in the main the poor old hobbyist picks up the crumbs. Some damage has been done u/g by academic and Institutional researchers you know - look at museums for proof. There is one argument in this though: many of the worlds finest (and sometimes rarest), specimens would not be seen if it wasn't for these people - there is a very fine line indeed here. How many times have I frantically hacked away at a mine dump in front of a bulldozer! - however I very rarely collect these days. With current opinion 'the authorities' are hell bent on eliminating these countrywide: and as to mine site reclamation, well, apart from a few good cases, there have been some outright and unmitigated disasters - we can all of us cite cases. At the end of the day the choice is relatively simply the Caldbeck scenario or as it all stands today - there is of course room for improvement, there always is. In general, all of us have fallen foul of the rules at one time or another, and I simply don't believe that all of the halo's out there are not without a slight dent or two! Who has not (once anyway), been to a mine - u/g or on somebody's land - without permission: everybody! As to removal of artefacts and vandalism, well, this happened a lot in the past, but thankfully people are much more historically minded these days. It still happens occasionally I'm sure, but not much I think/hope. As to caving societies and similar, well, it is just a matter of asking if they would like to join NAMHO - we would all benefit? I am not going to join in this 'debate' (on-line or off), but I will not stand by and see Ian take a bombardment without saying something. Decorum is a word that springs to mind. Regards, Bernard