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Dan (and everyone) -- I agree that there is a profound value in illustrating philosophical concepts -- what I had been interested in was whether and how a film might be thought to do more than that, and whether (as Clark and others suggest) there might be a distinctive contribution to philosophy possible through film (as opposed to written text). What Dan says about illustration, though, does suggest something along these lines and makes me think of other examples. He writes that: "To be a lucid and apt illustration of a philosophical concept is, all other things being equal, a good making characteristic for a work or art, in my view. Not only for its pedagogical value, but as a concrete embodiment of real human alternatives." This suggests that what a film may do (and it has this capacity in common with narrative literary works) is not only illustrate a theme or a principle or an idea, but at the same time present a challenge to that idea, showing it up as both compelling and yet not fully adequate to the reality it purports to describe, so that the idea itself gets "fleshed out" in the course of the presentation of the example. Of course examples come up all the time in written philosophy, but the tendency is to use these examples as illustrations -- whether of the idea in question or of a counter-idea. So the example in this case tends to be abstract -- you are supposed to get something specific from it and not something else. A convincing narrative or film is not like this -- which is largely what makes it convincing. We still need, however, to make a distinction (suggested by Dan's examples of Sartre and Dostoevsky) between a film (or literary) narrative that stands on its own as an event or series of events in their own right -- and the narrative that, while standing on its own as a convincing presentation at the same time invokes or calls upon the viewer to consider this narrative in relation to a theme or principle. So that the film itself seems to "say": consider this principle and consider it in relation to this example. The distinctively "philosophical" film (in this sense) would be the one that is structured so as to raise the question: what does this narrative say about this principle? A set of film examples that comes to mind is Kieslowski's Decalogue series. In this case the principle is explicitly drawn to the viewer's attention by the title of the series and the individual film. And yet I am inclined to say (without having yet made a detailed study of the individual films, but having at least viewed them all) that to make sense of each narrative you have to invoke the principle indicated by its title. The film about adultery, for example, shows (in a detailed and concrete way that is best seen and not merely described) both that there is something serious and profound at least for our world still today -- not to be simply brushed aside or ignored -- expressed in the ancient Judaic commandment against marital infidelity -- and that at the same time the real significance and moral implications of this prescription are deeply problematic. I could say basically the same thing about each film, plugging in a different law -- but the key is that this general formula doesn't even approach the complexity and subtlety and compelling nature of the way these problematics are dealt with in each individual film (-- of course, some are more successful than others). I would contend that this quality makes these films philosophical in their own right and not merely as appendages to "moral philosophy." Does anybody agree? (Of course: nothing that I have said here still distinguishes the philosophical merits of film from the philosophical potential of literature; I still don't have much to say on that, though I have heard some interesting things from Clark and Richard and others on this. I do have an example in mind, that I might discuss in another post when I get a chance.) Nate -- Nathan Andersen Assistant Professor of Philosophy Collegium of Letters Eckerd College 4200 54th Ave. S. Phone: (727) 864-7551 St. Petersburg, FL 33712 Fax: (727) 864-8354 U.S.A. E-mail: [log in to unmask]