From: Thomas Herron <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: queries: 'lnes' and Lyon
Hello -- two things re "Ines" and the historical allegory of the Lyon that
may or may not help:
1) Andrew points out the disqualifiers that the town of Innes is near
Galway and the majuscule "I" isn't used in this case; but if indeed
a) Grey intends a place or family name beginning with an "l" or "i", as
seems likely from the context as well as the possessive "s" that is given
after "Mc Mahoundes," and so possibly after "lnes," and
b) the "n" in "Ines" is rather to be read as a "u" (noted as possible by
Andrew), then
c) I would go for "Iues", that being a fair name for the region of
Iveagh, held by the Maguinnesses (also mentioned by Andrew, with the
MacMahons, as possible targets of Turlogh's raiding), forebearers of the
modern earls of Iveagh who built their fortune on selling Guinness beer.
Upper and Lower Iveagh are to the southeast of Lough Neagh and the
Blackwater River in western Co. Down, and the Iveagh land bordered the Pale
on its northern side. The Maginnesses were enemies of the O'Neills in the
1580's and 1590's, having been inflated and propped up by the Bagnalls who
used them (and the newly established town of Newry) as foils to O'Neill
power. Turlogh would have been right to challenge them.
2) Regarding the Lion and Sans Loy, I recall suggesting over a year ago on
this list that the Lyon's death in a salvage land could recall the troubled
efforts that William Lyon, Archbishop of Cork, Cloyne and Ross (in
south-west Munster), one-time chaplain to Lord Grey and principle defender
of the crown's reformed faith in Spenser's eventual neighborhood of Co.
Cork, had quelling the unruly pagan/Catholic in his diocese. An
extraordinary letter written by him in 1594 (6?) and in the CSPI complains
at length that no Catholic in Cork comes willingly to Protestant services
anymore and that Jesuits have infiltrated the place, etc. While Lyon had
better attendance earlier on (esp. for a service in 1588/9 celebrating the
defeat of the Armada) I can't imagine him ever finding a completely warm
welcome there. He died a peaceful death (cf. DNB) but allegorically he was
speared by lawless Catholic elements many times, including raids on his
property in Cork (must check on that). Lyon was one of the major players in
Ireland associated with the Leicester-Grey faction from the late 1570's on.
As noted by Michael MacCarthy-Morrogh, he was involved financially in the
Munster plantation (I believe in the 1590's) and Judson's *Life of Spenser*
notes that Spenser's sister Sarah married John Travers, registrar of Lyon's
diocese. Lyon was probably minister to Spenser's marriage to Elizabeth
Boyle (Variorum "Epithalamion"). Spenser would have had good reason to
allude to him sympathetically in his historical allegory as a powerful icon
of sovereign English faith (who could use force to ensure its compliance)
speared Christ-like by the lawlessness of Irish salvages fond of sacking
churches and fondling rosaries. Sans Loi and his brothers bring the
three(?) rebellious and Catholic Butler brothers (not the earl of Ormond, a
Protestant) of the 1560's to mind as well as the rebellious Desmond brothers
and cousins of the 1570's and 80's. It would be worth finding out the
heraldry of these malefactors to see if Spenser puns on it. I recall
something like "Un Loi, Un Foi" associated with one of them but miserably I
have misplaced my notes and despair.
A final Cork connection may reside in Corceca's name, and/or her
possible relation to the prominent local legend of the old hag of Corca
Duibhne, in English the Dingle/Beare area; Duessa, too. --Tom Herron
>From: Andrew Zurcher <>
>Reply-To: Sidney-Spenser Discussion List <[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: query: 'lnes'
>Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 00:26:39 +0000
>
>Now that we have reached the very witching hour (GMT), I cast caution to
>the winds and appeal recklessly to your collective wisdom.
>
>In the following passage in PRO State Papers 63/83/6, a letter from Grey
>to Walsingham, Grey is speaking of his dealings with Tirlough Luineach
>O'Neill. I am having trouble with the last word in the second line of the
>quoted passage, which appears to be 'lnes' (or perhaps 'lues') with a
>tilde above. My only reasonable thought so far is that this could be a
>contraction of 'limines', a word that has some precedent in classical
>usage for 'threshhold' or perhaps 'border' (the supplied letters, 'imi',
>would be a likely cluster), here referring to the Pale.
>
>Can anyone corroborate this type of usage, either in classical literature
>or in medieval/renaissance latin texts (and best case, was this term ever
>used in contemporary Irish/English Latin texts to refer to the Pale or the
>'borders' more generally?)
>
>OR
>
>can you suggest a better alternative? (for example, some local piece of
>Ulster geography that I have missed?)
>
>I recognize that this second part is pretty risky without the manuscript
>before you, but all suggestions, however zany, will be welcomed with open
>arms.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Andrew
>
>
>I make styll as fayre wether with Tyrlagh as I can: vppon the last trea=
>tie of owre commissioners, hee camme ouer the blackwater too the lnes
>& Mc Mahoundes countrie in sheowe too haue taken pledgies
>of them for restitution of wronges & spoyles doonne by them, vppon
>the pale, but the end sheowed that it was onely too assure those cunt=
>ries the more vntoo hym, for not е the woorthe of a pennie that
>restitution was made for all hys pledgies takyng, & for better prouff
>of hys good meanyng in retourne hee tooke Clan de Boy in hys
>waye, prayed the towne of Knockfergus, tooke buyinges of the
>Chiefist of the cuntrie & enforced them by othe too beecoomme hys
>men; еее this mee thynckes maye guyue no meane sheowe of hys
>purpoze in the rest in case hee bee lett goe on; & aduertisments daylie
>coomme too mee of a greate force of Scottes daylie expected too lande./
>
>
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
>Andrew Zurcher
>Gonville & Caius College
>Cambridge CB2 1TA
>United Kingdom
>tel: +44 1223 335 427
>
>hast hast post hast for lyfe
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