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Sorry, Jeffrey, but I don't get the point of translating Erminia's post into Italian. Is it supposed to be a joke? Are you trying to show us all how clever you are? Non capisco. I must be stupid. Best Dave David Bircumshaw Leicester, England Home Page A Chide's Alphabet Painting Without Numbers www.paintstuff.20m.com/index.htm http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeffrey Jullich" <[log in to unmask]> To: <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 7:09 PM Subject: Back on Planet Earth + stupidity > > Robin, > > la ragione per la qualesiete essendo iete essendo delirious è > perché avete provato ad opporre alla mia definizione precisa ed > immaculate di stupid. e di stupidity. (come essendo con acuto e > lento nella percezione mentale ed impressionabile) (così, leggere > per favore la mia lettera, prima di entrare in un frenzy delle > risposte incontrollate) un giro rapido delle definizioni (il colpo > chedelirious volete colpirli con) che è giusta una ripetizione di > esattamente che cosa ho detto. Inoltre, alas, quando il mondo > stupid e lo stupidity (con il relativo etymology latino > unquestionable) sono arrivato al vostro paese, era troppo ritardata > per voi per sostenere ma un uso storto puro di esso (dovuto le > dottrine mediche iniziate prima sui secoli continent da Greeks e > da Romans, che definiscono stupid come essendo non gli stessi > di pazzi. Di conseguenza per niente applicabile, ho dichiato, al > poet ed alla poesia) > > > On Wed, 28 Nov 2001 17:00:22 -0000, Robin Hamilton > > <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > > > >Erminia writes: > > > > > >" > > >Note on stupidity: etymologically (being Italian it comes easy to me, the > > >etymology of words: I am not trying to intellectualise the matter), it > > >comes from the Latin stupor (the being amazed). So to be stupefied, it is > > >to be subjected to the effects of something amazing which causes stupor. > > >" > > > > > >Alas, Erminia, there are two problems here. One is the Etymological > > Fallacy > > >(surely exploded since de Saussure was published early in the century) that > > >the current meaning of words can be explained by an appeal to their > > semantic > > >origins. > > > > > >But that aside, the etymology you propose is a little dubious. > > > > > >[With the usual reservations about first citation not necessarily being > > >first use, etc. ...] > > > > > >Both "stupid" and "stupidity" first appear in English in the same work, a > > >translation by the poet Robert Copland (fl. 1508-1547) of _The questyonary > > >of cyrurgyens, with the fourth boke of the Terapentyke [sic] or methode > > >curatyfe of C. Galyen_ by Guido de Cauliaco. This is published in England > > >in 1541, and has the following: > > > > > >"For the fyrste speake ouer lyghtly and to imprudently, ... and the other > > >are all togyther stupydes, sturdy, & lytygious." > > > > > > (defined by the OED under STUPID as: "3. Wanting in or slow of mental > > >perception; lacking ordinary activity of mind; slow-witted, dull.") > > > > > >... and > > > > > >"Nowe we must esteme the stupydyte or audacyte of the man. I say the > > >stupidite yf he thynke to say well and the boldnes yf he fele hym selfe > > >culpable to saye nothynge." > > > > > > (defined by the OED under STUPIDITY as: "4. Dullness or slowness of > > >apprehension; gross want of intelligence.") > > > > > >Copland's translation of Guido's work on Galen would seem to be a one-off, > > >as the next appearance of "stupidity" isn't recorded till 1568. Even more > > >surprisingly, "stupid" doesn't reappear before 1605. > > > > > >As there are a relative wealth of instances of "stupidity" recorded after > > >1568 and before 1605, it would appear that (counterintuitively) "stupidity" > > >was in fairly regular use +before+ "stupid". > > > > > >The OED [if we accept its authority here] gives separate etymologies for > > >"stupid" and "stupidity": > > > > > >STUPID: ad. L. stupid-us, f. stup-ere to be stunned or benumbed. Cf. F. > > >stupide (Rabelais), Sp., Pg. estúpido, It. stupido. > > > > > >STUPIDITY: ad. L. stupiditas, f. stupid-us: see stupid and -ity. Cf. F. > > >stupidité, It. stupidità. > > > > > >But enough of these modern inferences!! Much more fun is to be found > > >mousing around The Early Modern English Dictionary Database ( > > >http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/english/emed/emedd.html ). > > > > > >There are 25 examples recorded, so I'll only give a selection. > > > > > >Cotgrave in 1611 defines both words: > > > > > > Stupide: [Stupide, benummed, sencelesse; dull, blockish, lumpish; > > >amazed, appalled, astonied.] > > > > > > Stupidité. [Stupiditie, sencelesnesse; dullnesse, blockishnesse; > > >astonishment, amazement.] > > > > > >And (with a bow to Erminia) here's Florio in 1598: > > > > > > Stupidità, stupiditie, astonishment, amazement, dullnes, or priuation > > >of the sences, sodaine priuation or lacke of sence or feeling, benumming, > > >astoniednes, dulnes or a trouble of the minde vpon a sodaine feare, not > > >perceiuing. > > > > > >But enough of this stupidity ... > > > > > >Robin > > > > > >APPENDIX: > > > > > >As Robert Copland's poems aren't that easy to find, perhaps a sample might > > >be of interest? Yes? No? Anyway ... > > > > > > A complaynt of them that be to soone maryed > > > > > >For as moche as many folke there be > > >That desyre the sacramente of weddynge > > >Other wyll kepe them in vyrgynye > > >And wyll in chastyte be lyuynge > > >Therfore I wyll put now in wrytynge > > >In what sorowe these men lede theyr lyues > > >That to soone be coupled to cursed wyues > > > > > >Now am I in grete myschefe and sorowe > > >To soone I put my body in gage > > >I lyue in care/nyght/euen/and morowe > > >Lytell lacketh that I ne enrage > > >To be to soone maryed I layde my gage > > >Cursed be the tyme that I it euer knewe > > >The deuyll haue his parte of maryage > > >And of hym that me fyrste therto drewe > > > > > >My herte ryght yll dyd me counsell > > >To a yonge woman me for to same > > >To soone wedde there they dyd me compell > > >Wherfore I holde my selfe in fame > > >By god I swere and by his name > > >I wyll all louers clene dyscourage > > >That wolde not wt there wyll take them a dame > > >And put them selfe in suche domage > > > > > >Better it were to be a man sauage > > >Than to be take in that ylke lase > > >Gentell galauntes flee that passage > > >Besyde that waye loke that ye passe > > >Go out of that waye that wyll the chase > > >Go out of that waye or ye be loste > > >Go ye therfro/tourne ye your face > > >Go frome that waye to another coste > > > > > >Go ye thense my frendes I you praye > > >Go ye therfro I you do praye > > >Go ye frome that hote flambe of fyre > > >Go ye therfro as I you saye > > >Or ye wyll repente an other daye > > >Go ye therfro full loude I crye > > >Go ye fro the bonde of welawaye > > >Whiche is the arke of all folye ... >