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Dear Mark I regret that you see yourself as a hunted rodent when all I have done is invite you to elaborate upon your own words' meaning. You anticipate my conclusions and you get it wrong; the conclusions you attribute to me are NOT my conclusions. I find no comfort in anything much at the moment, in what has happened, in what is happening and what may well happen. Just now some slightly jolly voices are saying maybe there won't be war when people are already dying because of frightening utterances. But no one mentions that; and the opinion seems to be that sending aid will somehow make it all right. Bring back indulgences! As to a moral claim to life... I don't know what you are talking about. Those are your words. I am questioning the relevance of _innocence_ and _relative innocence_. I am also questioning the *use of those terms. I am trying to discuss such issues with anyone who will discuss them in an endeavour to learn more about my thoughts, others' thoughts and what needs to be done. There's a lot of muddled thinking around and I am not free of it It seems to me self-evident that some are more or less complicit in all goods and bads - if you'll accept such a sloppy term. If they are not, I do not know what we are to do with any concept of taking people to justice. If it's true that we are all complicit to an equal extent, ok. I wouldn't want to stand in the way of updating our ethics; but be sure where that leads us. We're all guilty, person - you, me, Bin Laden, Bush, the aid worker. I was only doing my duty. If, for whatever reason, you will not respond to me, there's nothing I can do and nothing that I shall do. However, I protest at your offensive response on the basis of defensive misreadings of my intentions All the very best Lawrence ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Weiss" <[log in to unmask]> To: <[log in to unmask]> Sent: 26 September 2001 11:52 Subject: Re: Letter to a leftist friend | This little cat and mouse gets sillier and crueler by the moment, Lawrence. | I wasn't so much positing relative innocence as questioning the relevance | of the term. But if you wish to comfort yourself that some are less | complicit in the society in which they live and that that somehow gives | them a greater moral claim to life be my guest. | | Mark | | | At 10:39 AM 9/26/2001 +0100, you wrote: | >Ah, so - for Mark - we are speaking of relative innocence. I don't know if | >that applies to Frederick, but let's go on from what Mark has told us - if | >we're all agreeable. | > | >Are they, the workers in the Pentagon, as relatively innocent as those in | >WTC who were not in the military, a janitor perhaps? Let's compare, say, a | >procurement officer in the Pentagon and a janitor in WTC - are they of the | >same relative innocence? And, if so, why? | > | >Are there not degrees of complicity? | > | >L | > | >----- Original Message ----- | >From: "Mark Weiss" <[log in to unmask]> | >To: <[log in to unmask]> | >Sent: 26 September 2001 04:03 | >Subject: Re: Letter to a leftist friend | > | > | >| I'm with you, Fred. In this country soldiers and sailors I've known refer | >| to the military as "the iron tit," the source of lifetime security. It | >| provides our only socialized medicine system, subsidized housing, moving | >| expenses, higher education, even subsidized department stores. And a | >| healthy pension after 20 years, with most of the other benefits continuing | >| till death. Very few sign up to be warriors--it's usually the best gig | >they | >| can find. And that goes double for the civilian employees. So yes, I'd say | >| that they're usually among the innocent, as innocent as any of us in this | >| society where it's impossible not to be complicit, whatever our politics. | >| The same, I imagine, could be said for the average Afghani. | >| | >| Mark | >| | >| At 09:59 PM 9/25/2001 -0400, you wrote: | >| >Lawrence Upton wrote: | >| >> | >| >> ----- Original Message ----- | >| >> From: "Frederick Pollack" <[log in to unmask]> | >| >> To: <[log in to unmask]> | >| >> Sent: 25 September 2001 16:43 | >| >> Subject: Re: Letter to a leftist friend | >| >> | >| >> | Someone will pay, in blood and pain, for what has been done to | >innocent | >| >> | American civilians. | >| >> | >| >> Do you include in that category "innocent American citizens" those who | >| >> worked in the Pentagon. If so, why? If not, why not? | >| >> | >| >> Serious question. Please answer. | >| >> | >| >> all the best | >| >> | >| >> L | >| > | >| >Yes. If one assumes that everyone who works in the Pentagon, including | >| >janitors, clerks, quartermasters etc., is guilty of neocolonialism and | >| >imperialism, one is following the same standard whereby already starving | >| >(and perhaps apolitical) Afghans may soon be "acceptable collateral | >| >damage." One accedes also to the idea, with which GWB agrees, that this | >| >attack was an act of war. | >| > | >| | > |