Candice: > How about posting a couple from the Collected to supplement the two in > _Brit Po Since 1945_ ("Hvalsey" and "Vadstena"), Matthew? Berry is new to me > also and quite interesting, meadevil-wise. I'll see what I can do (without busting copyright). The way in might be to start with "Punitive Expedition", go back to _Morant Bay_ [taking in Melville's "Benitto Cereno" on the way], then on to _Ghosts of Greenland_. Ignore anything pre-"Morant Bay", and avoid the novel-version (When _Illness and Ghosts in the West Settlement_ became (the novel) _Ghosts of Greenland_). Or just buy _From the Red Fort_. > Just to clarify a number of languages, poetics, and poems that seem to have > been conflated relative to alliteration, Who's conflating? I'm [I +hope+] unconflating. [When did you last read Sermono Lupes de Anglos?] > we need to keep in mind that > Beowulf is a textual artifact of an oral-poetics tradition in which the > alliteration served to bind pairs of hemistiches, which weren't even _half_ > lines prior to the introduction of writing Um ... _Beowulf_ is written (continuous) [no line endings] as is Aelfric and Wulfstan ... > Both Langland and the Gawain/Pearl poet were _writers_ who used the old > oral-alliterative device (as did the author of the alliterative Morte > D'Artur, btw) [Constant Reader Throws Up] (And let's +not+ segue into fifteenth century Scots -- Where would you put The Twa Merrit Wemen? Douglas's alliterative bits? Henryson was too sensible, except when he was about to die -- remember the "shit a hard turd" joke?]) > to make a sociopolitical/aesthetic point about the existence > of poetry elsewhere in England besides the Court [picky] "courts". The Gawain poet was "court" -- just West Midlands deeply upper class provincial, rather than London metropolitan court. Same difference. > --Langland making his point > in plain style (comparatively), while the Gawain/Pearl poet heightened the > artifice so artfully in order (I suspect) both to tweak the Court poets and > to show that he could! Hm ... Still think Langland is (metrically, and otherwise) batting in a different ball-park from the Gawain poet. [And Gawain = Pearl begs just a +tiny+ little question ...] > The other thing to keep in mind relative to Modern English translations of > Old English versus Middle English alliterative poems is how different the > actual languages are: Middle English is so close to Modern that I've never > seen the point of translating it at all, whereas Old English is so much more > like German as to be a foreign language to us speakers of Modern. Perfectly fair -- none of the Big Three (the Gawain Poet [OK, well, just maybe], Chaucer, or Langland need +translating+. The crunch is transliterating. Carry it forward -- Wyatt makes perfect (well, mostly perfect) sense in Modern English [rhythmically and semantically] -- Skelton 90%. The crunch comes when you hit the 1380s. > P.S. Why isn't Christopher Walker or some other listee who knows all this > taking up these threads? (Don't I have enough to do around here?!) Concur. Robin