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I also think of Virginia Woolf's long-shadowed temperature-lowering "I" in A Room of One's Own and, by contrast, Toi Derricotte's or Ntozake Shange's small dynamic "i" in Natural Birth and For Colored Girls, and so many other examples. While I sympathise with Erminia, to some extent, on "we" as a placard or shield, I must admit that, having just been watching a series of Civil Rights movies (Eyes on the Prize), "we" is essential. Mairead On Mon, 9 Apr 2001, Matthew Francis wrote: > A marvellous insight, Mairead. I don't know that many poems about > childbirth, but of course the Sylvia Plath poem _You're_ springs to mind. It > seems to me that the pronouns actually mean different things from poem to > poem - 'you' addressed to a real person is different from 'you' addressed to > the reader of the poem, which is different again from 'you' (all right, > 'thou') to a Grecian urn, or 'you' meaning 'one'. And sometimes these > meanings can slide into each other over the course of the poem. Other > deictic words like 'this' and 'here' can behave similarly. That's why I find > the subject so fascinating, and get so annoyed by poems that use these words > in a rigid, mechanical way. > > Best wishes > > Matthew > -----Original Message----- > From: Mairead Byrne <[log in to unmask]> > To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]> > Date: 08 April 2001 18:53 > Subject: Re: please expand > > > >I agree with you, Matthew. The poem I posted was about the unscalability > >of we. On the subject of "you" (!), one place I very much appreciate its > >use is in poetry about childbirth where the child is addressed as "you" > >and the pronoun is almost suspended in questionmarks, perhaps because > >beeing "applied" for the first time. > >Mairead > > > >On Sun, 8 Apr 2001, Matthew Francis wrote: > > > >> That's OK - as I had mentioned in passing that you had got my name wrong > >> before, I assumed you must be doing it deliberately. I am not offended > when > >> people reverse my name by mistake, as happens quite often. > >> > >> To return - cautiously - to our previous discussion, it's clear now that > you > >> were not intending to be taken literally when you said that you hated the > >> use of 'we' in poems generally. I was not sure whether you were or not. > It > >> seems to me that self-parody is not an inaccurate description of the > >> hyperbole you used, which you have yourself subsequently described as a > >> joke. You were parodying or exaggerating a position you actually hold, > and > >> perhaps it was a bit much to expect that others would be able to > distinguish > >> your real position from your joking one on so little evidence. I don't, > I'm > >> afraid, remember your former discussion of the subject. > >> > >> I was a bit puzzled, too, Candice, when you said we'd been through the > >> question of pronouns exhaustively before. Are you sure it was on this > list? > >> I do remember a discussion of my own personal bete noire, poems that use > >> 'you' supposedly to tell a real person a lot of things they must already > >> know - as in _Birthday Letters_. It was a long time ago, and may have > been > >> on britpo, which I belonged to at the time. Somebody came up with one of > >> Hardy's great poems to *his* dead wife, and effectively silenced me on > that > >> one. I still think that most of the time the effect is unbearably > pompous, > >> and there are a lot of poets who seem to think anything is a poem > provided > >> it's in the present tense and addressed to a lover, or the past and > >> addressed to a dead relative. > >> > >> If this is becoming a bore, I had better stop. For me, as I've said, it's > >> crucial - the question of pronouns, like the question of form, is one > that I > >> have to settle for myself all over again every time I write a poem. And > >> while I accept that 'we' can also be a symptom of self-importance, I > believe > >> some poets successfully claim the right to speak for others. I could > quote > >> lots of examples, but the one that sticks in my mind is the end of > >> _Briggflatts_: > >> > >> Night, float us. > >> Offshore wind, shout. > >> Ask the sea > >> what's lost, what's left, > >> what horn sunk, > >> what crown adrift. > >> > >> Where we are who knows > >> of kings who sup > >> while day fails? Who > >> swinging his axe > >> to fell kings, guesses > >> where we go? > >> > >> Best wishes > >> > >> Matthew > >> > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Clitennestra Giordan <[log in to unmask]> > >> To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]> > >> Date: 08 April 2001 17:01 > >> Subject: Re: please expand > >> > >> > >> >Dear Matthew, > >> > > >> >I was not aware that I was using your surname. > >> >I am sorry if it sounded rude. I was simply confused. > >> >Have my sincere apologies. > >> >So, Matthew, please, excuse me again. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> >erminia > >> > > >> > > >