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Hi Trevor You got me there. You're probably right, and I'm being rash. But I still wouldn't back away from saying the epic is fundamental to literature. It's not discounting lyrics and shorter poems, but there are observations which makes me think the epic is, gulp, simply more important than other forms. In Iran for centuries after the Arab invasion, the language, religion and culture of Persia was absolutly oppressed by Islam - people either spoke Arabic and worshipped Allah or they died. Somehow as the middle-ages started drawing to their end - from 12th century onwards - Persian culture (which was, ironically enough, given a boost by a far more brutal bunch of invaders - the Mongols) began flourishing in and around major eastern cities like Shiraz (where the wine originally came from). Sufism, amongst other things, was a product of ancient Indo-European spirituality multiplying with Islam. Some amazing poets emerged; Hafiz, Rumi, Omar Khayam, etc. It is, howecver, with very little reservation, that the forefather of persian poetry was Ferdowsi who wrote the very very long epic Shah Numeh (King's letter). There are pretty solid reasons for my assumption; Ferdowsi took a (patriotic?) vow to write in Persian wihout using a single word of Arabic. This would be like writing in English without using a single word of French or Latin. You can think of Ferdowsi as a Persian Chaucer if you like. Successful, failure or whatever, wihtout his language the Persian poets of the next centuries may not have existed. Then, more importantly, is the scope of his epic; the sheer magnitude of encapsulating just about every human motif into one singular body - and singularity is a characteristic of any epic - multiplying them with everything known about Persia's ancient history and providing a who's who of pre-Islamic mythology. This provided a lot of material for future poets; legends, landscapes, symbolism, etc. Much as the mystic lyricist Hafiz is my favourite Persian poet, I can't deny that Ferdowsi is more important than him, and should contemporary Iranian poetry come to a stand-still, I'd suggest a study of the epic before the ghazelles. Ali At 11:44 PM 2/22/01 +0000, you wrote: >Jim: having just come back on-list(s) after an absence which got me an >in-basket of over a couple of thousand posts (I'm still floundering), I >found it very cheering to come across your mention of Brian Coffey's work. >I'm a bit doubtful, though, about linking anything of his to epic, though I >suppose that depends on how one defines to begin with. Wouldn't Death of >Hektor be closer, even if in opposition? > >Ali: you've suggested a couple of times that epic is where our literature >comes out of. (I'm reading, filing and deleting at such a rate that I've >lost track of specific references.) I'd query that. Back in the early >eighties, I was lucky enough, as a total blow-in, to find myself in a >room-full of sinologists. I asked them a question that had puzzled me for >years: did the Chinese tradition have an equivalent to the first two legs >of the trifold Greek origination of poetry: epic, dramatic, lyric? (I'm no >Hellenist neither) I know there are 'classical' examples of all of these >somewhere in the Chinese lineage, but the first two, and particularly epic, >seems notably lacking at the originary stage in Chinese poetry. Anyway, the >assembled luminaries couldn't suggest any examples for me, but perhaps >someone here can . . . ? > >But, in any event, I wouldn't go out there assuming so transparently the >ubiquity of epic. It needs looking at, and maybe a little informed >comparatist analysis - no? > >Cheers, > >Trevor > >>2:Can I propose Brian Coffey's Advent as a truly great long poem and a >>place to reconsider epic? It mediates references to history (Irish >>independance,Space Flight)with more personal (Christian) reflection, and >>its achievement is to evoke a grandeur of scope and intent that might be >>described as 'epic' but is by no means imperious or pompous. If there is >>any sense in a contemporary epic poem as a working of collective memory, >>then this poem rewards reading. It really puts Hill's Triumph of Love >>in the shade, but that's another matter... >> >>Hope this is interesting to some >>regards >>Jim Tink of Brighton, UK