Two questions for Paul: 1 Did you like the man more at the end of the consultation than you did at the beginning? 2 Since when has "objective refutable truth" been more true than poetic (metaphorical) truth? Iona xxx PS Years ago, one of my partners said that life was a pool of shit and that his job, as a GP, was to direct people to the shallow end - somehow Ceri's magnificent description of two dimensional phase space seemed to be saying much the same thing. -----Original Message----- From: Dr. Paul Hodgkin <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]> Date: 8 December 2001 17:45 Subject: tipping points and shadow worlds >Three points: firstly doctors clearly have attractors - Deliberately making >myself wonder whether many people disliked this man is an old habit (or >attractor). My usual response on finding my dislike emerging out of the >shadow world of my side of the consultation is to think 'if I dislike >them, maybe this person suffers lots of dislike from many sides, so what >must that be like for them?' And to get out of the dead-end of dislike >does take significant conscious internal energy - it feels as though I'm >lifting myself out of a 'dislike' trough, over the hill, and landing in a >more useful what-must-it-be-like-to-always-be-disliked valley. And >sometimes I fail to make it and stay stuck in covert antagonism. So yes, we >definitely do have attractors. Or things that act like them.... but which >might also be called habits or training or education. > >Which brings me to my second question which is epistemological - what is >the nature of the insights that complexity brings to primary care? Are they >'true' in some deep, or objective, or refutable way? Or are they just a >handy suite of interlocking metaphors - similar to the psychoanalytic ones >that Balint introduced to general practice - that provide a more coherent > set of explanations to doctors or patients? A better fitting shroud >through which, indirectly, to continue our grasping apprehension of the >consultation? I can think of ways that one could test the utility of >complexity stories ( do they lead to consultations with better outcomes? Do >doctors or patients 'like' them?) but I find it hard to think of how they >might be tested or refuted in any deeper way. Any thoughts from the >research group? > >Finally who or what is doing the culling on the fitness landscape? what >mechanism takes the variety within the consultation and decides, and by >what criteria, which strategy is going to be >successful/propagated/repeated? The only candidate that I can see is our >own internal judgement - that seemed to work, that did n't - which >presumably is one reason why we get paid a lot of money but which has >little explanatory power. Maybe we should devise ways for patients to >decide, devices by which they can 'cull' or at least more explicitly >respond to our responses and statements about them. Or maybe this is a >point at which complexity theory gives out, part of the boundary marking >the end of its utility? >Paul >Paul Hodgkin >Primary Care Futures >21 Briar Rd, Sheffield S7 1SA >tel: 079 46463698 >email: [log in to unmask] > > > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Ceri Brown [SMTP:[log in to unmask]] >Sent: 07 December 2001 23:15 >To: [log in to unmask] >Subject: Re: tipping points, reply to AM Cunningham > >In a message dated 07/12/2001 19:55:05 GMT Standard Time, >[log in to unmask] writes: > > >> I'm a novice/munchkin with regards to complexity theory. >> >Liebe Munchkin, (Benign Witch of the North West writes:) > >> >> I have a few questions: >> >> Firstly, as doctors/health professionals- can we only give energy to help >> people out of the holes rather than change the landscape. >> I suppose in the model it doesn't matter whether you push or pull the >> patient. All that's required is a transfer of energy from you (acting as >a >> conduit for the 'energy' of the medical world) to the patient. If you >> prefer another physics analogy, transferring some of your available >> potential energy to add to the patient's kinetic energy in the hope that >> > >> Also it seems a very doctor-centred model- Yes it is iatrocentric, I >> > >could the patient find other sources of energy. > The general point is that 'energy' can be transferred from anywhere that >the >person thinks appropriate. Doctors are but one source. Social Services may >be >another, friends, groups etc etc. Get out of that 'potential well' by any >means possible, but some means are more efficient, or more socially >acceptable, than others > > >Are we at the bottom of the hole/well?- or travelling about on the >landscape >too? >The patient is travelling in her/his own landscape. We are travelling in >ours. Maybe the landscapes intersect at the point of consultation. NOW >THERE'S A NEW THOUGHT!!!!!!. I don't think we're at the bottom of the >patient's well, because we're not on the same fitness landscape. I can be >at >the 'peak of my profession' for the purposes of this argument, therefore >demonstrably not in the well. However I am aware of the patient's location >by >her/his description of the surroundings - feelings, symptomatology etc. We >just have to using similar conceptual frameworks to describe / understand >the >landscapes that others are on. Why did the conversation which started with >'crap' end up with a discussion of parents? ("They **** you up, your mum >and >dad..... Larkin) Presumably this is where the collaborative inquiry starts >to >fit in >> >> I'd rather conceive of myself as someone- if I couldn't level the >> landscape out altogether- who tried to help the patient develop better >> skills at negotiating the landscape so that he doesn't feel a constant >> dread of ending up in a hole, even though I could help him climb out >> (rather than push him). >> >> You can only do what you can do. Tipping the landscape isn't easy, but >look >> what's happening in Afghanisatan in relation to women. No-one's >> pushing/pulling them individually out of their Taliban induced wells, the >> whole landscape is being tipped to free them,or prevent them getting in >the >> wells in the first place. A medical analogy could be the introduction of >a >> health service or public health measures (back to the Victorian sewers >> point), where the action/energy of many individuals tipped the landscape. >> Another option is that the peaky landscape was rendered flatter. >> >A >> s for the dread of ending up in a 'crap' hole, I guess that's what >education >> > > > >T >> here is obviously a lot more to be teased out of this. Maybe I should >have >> gone to the doctor-patient group after all! See you next time then? >> > >Don't forget to polish the shoes! > >BWOTNW > > >aka >Ceri Brown >Critical Care Programme >Project Development and Research >0161 720 2342 (Secretary) >07659 120 038 (pager) >07876 230 561 (mobile) >Thanks to my variable clinical commitments, calls to my mobile won't be >answered promptly. Please leave a message, or page me. > > << File: ATT00009.html >>