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There is no dichotomy as Muslim/non Muslim dichotomy: the category of Muslim
is deceptively heterogenous across national, sectarian, regional, social
class, spiritual and ritual dimentions. That was why I suggested you to get
out of your rooms to meet people. So, I think I made my position and
objection to earlier messages very clear. However, it is also clear for me
that there is nothing I can learn from this childish  person whose sense of
discussion is to expect everybody to accept his premature judgments which
fail to understand the diversity in 'muslim community', which I share only
limited affinity due to my name: I felt the need to note this before you
extend similar judgments about me.

'Fundamentalist muslim' as a concept does not mean anything to me. I have
not used this word, but repeated it with an exclamation mark. I do not know
how one qualifies as Muslim, fundamentalist or a combination of both. So, I
cannot offer an answer in this matter.

I do not get offended by people blessing mickey mouse, allah,  jesus or
whoever. Please stop assuming that muslims are one people that share a set
of homogenous values. However, if you have comfort in false dichotomies, go
ahead and see the world through whichever dead weight framework you wish to
see.

I tried to unsubscribe from this group as since its inception I have not
received anything that my sociology course has not told me ten years ago. I
do hope however that you may live your beliefs (!) /dreams in diverse ways!

I would like to finish with a Chinese saying which, for me, explains the
current predicament of people from outside the industrialised world, which I
find you so endlessly unkind about:

'Same bed, but different dreams'.






----- Original Message -----
From: "Karl Carlile" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2001 5:09 PM
Subject: Re: Muslim fundamentalism


> It is clear that Mustafa is unable to defend his own politics since he
makes no
> attempt to present a counter argument to the one made by me.
>
> There is too much of this Muslim/non Muslim dichotomy. Mustafa talks as if
the way in
> which the Muslim is to be treated must be special and unique. It is as if
the term
> Muslim carrys some kind of special unique characteristics in contrast to
christianity
> that I am obliged to pay reverence to. I am not a Muslim nor a Christian.
I am a
> communist. I have every right to make criticisms of the muslim religion. I
can even
> make fun of that religion if I so wish after all I dont believe in it and
much of it
> is makes for daftness. I am under no obligation to pander to reactionary
religions
> whether they are Muslim or christian or hindu. When it gets down to it
they are all
> the same -reactionary ideologies designed to prop up capitalism  --and
sometimes its
> worst aspects.
>
> So god bless the virgin mary allah and mickey mouse.
>
> Regards
> Karl Carlile
> Be free to join our communism mailing list
> at http://homepage.eircom.net/~kampf/
>
>
> Members,
>
> I am very dissappointed with the ignorant manner in which the below
message
> was written by a non-muslim who is a know-all about how it is to be a
Muslim
> (fundamentalist!). Lumping all muslims together is a grave error of
> judgement, which fails to recognise the diversity within the Muslim
> population.
>
> Before I unsubscribe in protest, I would urge you to get out of your small
> worlds and see how transfer of wealth in the world pushes people to the
> margins. I will not read any more messages from this group.
>
> Thanks for your moment.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Karl Carlile" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 6:44 PM
> Subject: Muslim fundamentalism
>
>
> > Many Muslims have been declaring that all Muslims must obey the
> declaration of
> > a  holy war by the Taliban mullahs.
> > This view that emanates from many Muslims flies in the face of the
facts.
> > Muslims have over the years violently attacked each other. In
Afghanistan
> the
> > Northern Alliance consists of Muslims. Yet they have been engaged in
> combat with
> > the Muslim Taliban. The current Musharrif military dictatorship in
> Pakistan
> > violently ousted a democratically elected leader of Pakistan. Saddam
> Hussein,
> > leader of Iraq, has imprisoned and killed many a Muslim. The Iranian
> theocracy
> > has been responsible for the deaths of many a Muslim. The last King of
> Jordan
> > engaged in a massive attack on the Black September in Jordan. The Syrian
> regime
> > have been responsible for similar killings.
> > The degree to which Muslims internationally will obey the declaration of
a
> holy
> > war  is questionable. Fundamentalism is not as strong as it is often
> portrayed.
> > It can suit both sides to engage in  hyperbole to promote the particular
> > political interests that each respectively represent. The Taliban is a
> > reactionary regime that is bitterly hostile to communism. The entire
> programme
> > of the Taliban is the active hindering of the economic and political
> development
> > of Afghanistan.
> > In any anti imperialist war movement we cannot take either the side of
the
> US
> > led imperialist coalition nor the Muslim organisations or states that
may
> be
> > subject to attack from this reactionary coalition. We must mount a
popular
> > attack on this prospective imperialist war on the basis of an attack on
> the
> > capitalist state. Such a movement must challenge the very existence of
> > capitalism and the forces that support it such as the Taliban, the
Iranian
> state
> > and, above all, the imperialist states. Indeed Muslim fundamentalism is
> > capitalism's saviour. Its ideological and political function is designed
> to
> > prevent the masses from turning towards communism. In Iran where a
> revolutionary
> > situation emerged the Muslim movement led by Khomeni was the form
assumed
> by the
> > counter revolution. It prevented the Iranian working class from
deepening
> the
> > revolutionary process and thereby challenging capitalism. The
> Afghanistanian
> > mujahideen was sustained by imperialism through the CIA and the
Pakistani
> state
> > in the struggle to preserve and develop the class interests of
imperialist
> > capital.
> > Islamic fundamentalism is not as strong as it has been presented even by
> its
> > apparent enemies. There has been much hyperbole in this regard. If it
> posed a
> > threat to the stability and development of capitalism it would not be
> compelled
> > to resort to terrorism. The current condition of the Palestinians is
> irrefutable
> > evidence as to the weakness of Islamic fundamentalism. Islamic
> fundamentalism in
> > the Middle East has shown its complete political bankruptcy. Instead of
> the
> > situation improving as a result of its growing influence the situation
has
> been
> > deteriorating. This is because its strategy is incapable of solving the
> problems
> > of the Palestinian masses. Its sectarianism has generated division and
> further
> > polarised Jew from Arab. The problems of the Palestinian masses can be
> only
> > solved when Jewish and Arab worker join hands against Middle East
> capitalism and
> > its states --the Israeli, Jordanian, Syrian and Egyptian states. There
is
> no
> > essential difference between the Israeli  and Jordanian state. All such
> states
> > ultimately exist to perpetuate the class interests of imperialist
capital.
> All
> > must be abolished.  An attack on the Middle East capitalist states is an
> attack
> > on imperialist capitalism.
> > Muslim fundamentalism, and Islam in general, is a sectarian religious
> ideology
> > and even political philosophy and practice. It essentially promotes the
> class
> > interests of imperialism. Muslim and Christian fundamentalism are
> particularly
> > sectarian. Muslim fundamentalism has been effectively promoting
> polarization
> > between Eastern and Western workers at a time when the globalisation of
> the
> > working class into a unified political reality is an urgent necessity.
> While
> > attacking racism it sustains racism a multiplicity of ways because it is
> > inherently racist.
> > The conflict now developing between  US state and Islam fundamentalism
has
> its
> > source in the needs of US imperialism. US imperialism to survive must
> > relentlessly  extend and deepen its influence economically, politically
> and
> > ideologically. The developing global economic crisis is testimony to
this.
> > Consequently it must engage in specific geopolitical actions in
pursuance
> of
> > this aim. It cannot tolerate relatively autonomous, albeit
contradictory,
> forces
> > that hinder it in its desperate effort to extend and deepen its
influence.
> > Muslim fundamentalism is, largely speaking, one such force. Its
> destabilising
> > character in the current situation  outweighs its benefits for
> imperialism. It
> > is a destabilising force in Asia and the Middle East. Regimes that
> American
> > imperialism has needed are threatened with destabilisation and even
> collapse by
> > Muslim fundamentalism. Iran is a classic example where Muslim
> fundamentalism led
> > to the collapse of an actively pro-imperialist regime that was the
> lynchpin of
> > US geo political regional strategy.
> > However imperialism is a contradictory force which means that it engages
> in
> > policies and actions that lead to its own undermining. Although the
> function of
> > Muslim fundamentalism, as a counter revolutionary force,  is the
> prevention of
> > the development of the working class into a communist working class it
is
> these
> > unique characteristics that, in the immediate sense, obstruct
imperialist
> > expansion. Consequently imperialism's relationship to fundamentalism has
a
> > contradictory character. It uses it  in pursuance of its class interests
> while
> > simultaneously undermining it. In the same way Muslim fundamentalism is
> > contradictory. While actively sustained by imperialism it at the same
time
> > attacks imperialism its very source of nourishment. Bin Laden
personifies
> this
> > contradictory relation. While sustained by the CIA in his struggle in
> > Afghanistan he turns his guns on it.
> > In many ways Muslim fundamentalism is similar to Stalinism.  Stalinism
is
> a
> > counter revolutionary force that prevents the existence of communism.
> > Consequently it serves imperialism's interests. Yet to maintain its
unique
> role
> > as a counter revolutionary form it has acted, at the same time, in a way
> that
> > obstructs imperialism. This generates conflict between the two forces.
The
> Cold
> > War was just such a conflict.
> > Muslim fundamentalism is a religious and political ideology and practice
> that is
> > petty bourgeois. It serves the class interests of small capital. It is
> this that
> > makes it reactionary. However the very fact that it serves the interests
> of
> > small capital in the context of increasing capitalist globalisation is
> what
> > lends it  its acutely anachronistic image in the eyes of the Western
> working
> > class. However it is its specific class character that gives it its
appeal
> to
> > the masses that exist outside of western capitalist society. Its
> representation
> > of the interests of small capital means that it expresses a hostility to
> big
> > capital. And what bigger capital than US imperialist capital --the Great
> Satan.
> > It is this hostility by small capital against big capital that gives its
> > anti-imperialist appearance. It is this anti-imperialist appearance that
> lends
> > its anti-oppressive appearance. Consequently the Muslim masses identify
> with it.
> > Despite its anti-imperialist appearance it ultimately serves imperialism
> class
> > interests --essentially it cannot exist independently of global
> capitalism.
> > Muslim fundamentalism is a politics of the image. This is why it
presents
> itself
> > as quixotic pageantry -- religious rhetoric, images, long beards etc.
This
> form
> > of politics assumes a religious form because it is a politics of
> appearance. And
> > what more suitable a form for such a contradictory politics than its
> disguising
> > itself in religious --the class image system.
> > Given the political character of Muslim fundamentalism there is no
> possibility
> > that it can successfully resist the enormous power of capitalist
> imperialism
> > bearing down on it in the  form of this Washington led coalition of
> "Infinite
> > Justice".  Only the modern working class can effectively challenge the
> might of
> > the imperialist bourgeoisie.
> >
> > Note: Forgive the unpolished character of this posting since it was
> written in a
> > hasty manner because of the pressure of time and the fast pace of
> developments.
> >
> > Regards
> > Karl Carlile(Global Communist Group)
> > Be free to join our communism mailing list
> > at http://homepage.eircom.net/~kampf/
> >
>