At 08:55 PM 12/24/00 -0500, you wrote:
At 07:47 PM 12/24/00 -0500, you
wrote:
>in general the anti-millennial forces within xnty, both patristic
and
>"modern" historical, present millennialism (ie the belief
that the kingdom
>of heaven will be here on earth -- an idea with radical
political
>consequences), as a jewish notion. (it is -- almost all jewish
messianic
>scenarios are this-worldly.) it is, in their view, a later addition
to a
>purely spiritual xn message from jesus (the kingdom of heaven is
within, is
>not of this world, etc.). the way the church fathers liked to
think of it
>was that the literal-minded and simplistic believers that thought
that
>jesus' promises (meek to inherit the earth, etc.) were literally
going to
>happen in time were like the literal-minded jews who thought that
laws like
>circumcision and the sabbath were meant to be taken literally.
>
So are you using the term "juadizer" as we Catholics speak
of
"millenarianists?"
no. i'm explaining why, often, catholics used judaizer as a synonym for
millenarian. i would use judaizer to mean a xn (or other gentile)
who started to develop more and more jewish practices in his or her
ritual activity (e.g., seventh day adventist's shift to saturday; those
who want to observe jewish holidays "because that's what jesus
observed" rather than xn ones.) in general, until quite
recently (et encore), i think judaizer was a term of opprobrium for
xns.
>>Actually, I don't think of
looking for signs that might foretell the future
>>as particularly Jewish.
>
>no. trying to fortell when the Lord's Day wd come, judgment day,
the
>Parousia in xn terms, was/is a widespread tendency in all the
monotheistic
>religions. but the issue with millennialism is what you expect
to come,
>not the timing.
Are all monotheistic religions eschatological?
generally, yes, altho early israelite religion may not have been.
there's little evidence that they even had clearcut ideas about life
after death.
And can there be monotheism without
eschatologism?
i think so.
And if so why?
answer to why monotheistic religions tend to be eschatological: because
altho every religion that demands some kind of ethical behavior from its
followers has to give some answer to why the evil flourish and the good
suffer in this world, it is a particular problem for religions that hold
that there is only one god who is at once good and omnipotent. why
wd such a god permit evil not only to exist but to flourish? one of
the most powerful answers is that this life is a test, and that god is
going to come and judge all humanity at some point. eschaton means
"end", more specifically the collective end of this world and
god's Last Judgment (Doomsday) on all mankind. that need not be the
end of the physical world, but it is the end of evil's "free
ride". in purely eschatological terms, it's the end of the
physical world entirely, with the good in heaven the bad in hell; in
millennial terms, there's an interim period (say 1000 years) in which the
good enjoy the earthly paradise before going to heaven. but the key
to eschatological is collective -- it's public and it all happens at
once.
answer to why m.r. might not be eschatological: if they develop
alternative forms of explanation for theodicy. e.g., with the devt
of purgatory, late medieval catholic doctrine began to have the pieces of
a religion without the need for an eschaton. similarly dionysian
hierarchies offered an alternative to eschatology (i think de lubac makes
this point, but comments that if you go too far down that road, you're no
longer xn). generally eschatology, and even more so millennialism,
are part and parcel of any religion that wants to appeal to large numbers
of people, rather than just an intellectual elite.
And if so, what does this say
about
the relationship of eschatological characteristics and existing
monotheistic religions in the period?
i think it says that in ordinary people's experience the world seemed
like a very unjust place, and only a dramatic reversal of the current
system made any sense of claims that god was good and wanted man to be
good. i think that when we move into a more democratic society, in
which the courts and the govt claim to seek justice for all, that some of
the pressure is relieved from the eschatological steam engine.
hence modernity, which tries to realize a number of the demands for
social justice that are imbedded in the prophetic call, also tends to
downplay eschatological ideologies. (but then, in my book,
modernity is a millennial project, a man-made one -- frankenstein's
millennium).
>>It was the pagans who were
always checking their tea
>>leaves, animal livers, or whatever. The prophets weren't supposed
to be
>>augurs--more like passive conduits for the word of God.
>
>it's a bit more complicated than that. but grosso-modo, every
culture
>wants to know what's coming in the future and develops ways to
>tell. judaism and its spin-offs, by anticipating that the next
major
>change wd be a cosmic (total and final) resolution to the problems of
evil
>in history, upped the ante considerably on what one looked into the
future
>for evidence of.
What do you mean by "judaism"?
the surviving forms or ancient israelite religion after the first wave of
imperial conquests in the middle east (assyrian and persian).
And how can an "ism"
"up the ante"?
speaking metaphorically.
And if you mean rabbi's or jewish
prophets, then which ones wanted to know the
future and so invented prophecies of it?
almost all prophets are in the business of saying "if you don't do
so and so (generally repent and return to the ways of the lord), then so
and so (generally destruction of some sort) will come. in the later
periods (3rd cn BCE onwards) some of this became more predetermined and
more cosmic, giving what some historians call "apocalyptic"
scenarios which will occur to all whatever mankind does -- we can only
affect what happens to us at the time of the eschaton (ie are we saved or
not). obviously jesus, and xnty, arises within this framework
"repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!" as does islam
(many references in the quran to the day of the Lord, of judgment, of the
resurrection of the dead). so xnty and islam are, to a degree that
judaism is not, inherently eschatological. the pharisees, according
to josephus, believed in the resurrection of the dead, a dead give-away
for eschatological beliefs. maimonides enshrined these beliefs in
his 13 principles, so, despite modern liberal jewish indifference, even
rejection of such notions, it seems to be an integral part of rabbinic
judaism.
Which prophecies are you talking
about?
all the big ones about what happens at the end of days, at the day of the
lord...
And why do you think they are
millenialists?
because, with few exceptions, they are about transformations of
this world, not the end of the physical plane entirely. the
classic millennial vision: sword into plowshare, spear into pruning hook,
nation will not lift up sword against nation... and of course, from
the perspective of an aristocracy that rules by the sword and does not
engage in manual labor, that's deeply subversive.
richard
ps. do come to the CMS website and look around. many of your
questions are answered.
Richard Landes
Center for Millennial Studies at Boston
University Department
of History
704 Commonwealth Ave. Suite
205 226
Bay State Road
Boston MA
02215 Boston
MA 02215
617-358-0226 of
358-0225
fax 617-353-2558
of 353-2556 fax
http://www.mille.org [log in to unmask]