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At 08:55 PM 12/24/00 -0500, you wrote: >At 07:47 PM 12/24/00 -0500, you wrote: > > >in general the anti-millennial forces within xnty, both patristic and > >"modern" historical, present millennialism (ie the belief that the kingdom > >of heaven will be here on earth -- an idea with radical political > >consequences), as a jewish notion. (it is -- almost all jewish messianic > >scenarios are this-worldly.) it is, in their view, a later addition to a > >purely spiritual xn message from jesus (the kingdom of heaven is within, is > >not of this world, etc.). the way the church fathers liked to think of it > >was that the literal-minded and simplistic believers that thought that > >jesus' promises (meek to inherit the earth, etc.) were literally going to > >happen in time were like the literal-minded jews who thought that laws like > >circumcision and the sabbath were meant to be taken literally. > > >So are you using the term "juadizer" as we Catholics speak of >"millenarianists?" no. i'm explaining why, often, catholics used judaizer as a synonym for millenarian. i would use judaizer to mean a xn (or other gentile) who started to develop more and more jewish practices in his or her ritual activity (e.g., seventh day adventist's shift to saturday; those who want to observe jewish holidays "because that's what jesus observed" rather than xn ones.) in general, until quite recently (et encore), i think judaizer was a term of opprobrium for xns. > >>Actually, I don't think of looking for signs that might foretell the future > >>as particularly Jewish. > > > >no. trying to fortell when the Lord's Day wd come, judgment day, the > >Parousia in xn terms, was/is a widespread tendency in all the monotheistic > >religions. but the issue with millennialism is what you expect to come, > >not the timing. > >Are all monotheistic religions eschatological? generally, yes, altho early israelite religion may not have been. there's little evidence that they even had clearcut ideas about life after death. >And can there be monotheism without eschatologism? i think so. >And if so why? answer to why monotheistic religions tend to be eschatological: because altho every religion that demands some kind of ethical behavior from its followers has to give some answer to why the evil flourish and the good suffer in this world, it is a particular problem for religions that hold that there is only one god who is at once good and omnipotent. why wd such a god permit evil not only to exist but to flourish? one of the most powerful answers is that this life is a test, and that god is going to come and judge all humanity at some point. eschaton means "end", more specifically the collective end of this world and god's Last Judgment (Doomsday) on all mankind. that need not be the end of the physical world, but it is the end of evil's "free ride". in purely eschatological terms, it's the end of the physical world entirely, with the good in heaven the bad in hell; in millennial terms, there's an interim period (say 1000 years) in which the good enjoy the earthly paradise before going to heaven. but the key to eschatological is collective -- it's public and it all happens at once. answer to why m.r. might not be eschatological: if they develop alternative forms of explanation for theodicy. e.g., with the devt of purgatory, late medieval catholic doctrine began to have the pieces of a religion without the need for an eschaton. similarly dionysian hierarchies offered an alternative to eschatology (i think de lubac makes this point, but comments that if you go too far down that road, you're no longer xn). generally eschatology, and even more so millennialism, are part and parcel of any religion that wants to appeal to large numbers of people, rather than just an intellectual elite. >And if so, what does this say about >the relationship of eschatological characteristics and existing >monotheistic religions in the period? i think it says that in ordinary people's experience the world seemed like a very unjust place, and only a dramatic reversal of the current system made any sense of claims that god was good and wanted man to be good. i think that when we move into a more democratic society, in which the courts and the govt claim to seek justice for all, that some of the pressure is relieved from the eschatological steam engine. hence modernity, which tries to realize a number of the demands for social justice that are imbedded in the prophetic call, also tends to downplay eschatological ideologies. (but then, in my book, modernity is a millennial project, a man-made one -- frankenstein's millennium). > >>It was the pagans who were always checking their tea > >>leaves, animal livers, or whatever. The prophets weren't supposed to be > >>augurs--more like passive conduits for the word of God. > > > >it's a bit more complicated than that. but grosso-modo, every culture > >wants to know what's coming in the future and develops ways to > >tell. judaism and its spin-offs, by anticipating that the next major > >change wd be a cosmic (total and final) resolution to the problems of evil > >in history, upped the ante considerably on what one looked into the future > >for evidence of. > >What do you mean by "judaism"? the surviving forms or ancient israelite religion after the first wave of imperial conquests in the middle east (assyrian and persian). >And how can an "ism" "up the ante"? speaking metaphorically. >And if you mean rabbi's or jewish prophets, then which ones wanted to know the >future and so invented prophecies of it? almost all prophets are in the business of saying "if you don't do so and so (generally repent and return to the ways of the lord), then so and so (generally destruction of some sort) will come. in the later periods (3rd cn BCE onwards) some of this became more predetermined and more cosmic, giving what some historians call "apocalyptic" scenarios which will occur to all whatever mankind does -- we can only affect what happens to us at the time of the eschaton (ie are we saved or not). obviously jesus, and xnty, arises within this framework "repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!" as does islam (many references in the quran to the day of the Lord, of judgment, of the resurrection of the dead). so xnty and islam are, to a degree that judaism is not, inherently eschatological. the pharisees, according to josephus, believed in the resurrection of the dead, a dead give-away for eschatological beliefs. maimonides enshrined these beliefs in his 13 principles, so, despite modern liberal jewish indifference, even rejection of such notions, it seems to be an integral part of rabbinic judaism. >Which prophecies are you talking about? all the big ones about what happens at the end of days, at the day of the lord... >And why do you think they are millenialists? because, with few exceptions, they are about transformations of this world, not the end of the physical plane entirely. the classic millennial vision: sword into plowshare, spear into pruning hook, nation will not lift up sword against nation... and of course, from the perspective of an aristocracy that rules by the sword and does not engage in manual labor, that's deeply subversive. richard ps. do come to the CMS website and look around. many of your questions are answered. Richard Landes Center for Millennial Studies at Boston University Department of History 704 Commonwealth Ave. Suite 205 226 Bay State Road Boston MA 02215 Boston MA 02215 617-358-0226 of 358-0225 fax 617-353-2558 of 353-2556 fax http://www.mille.org [log in to unmask]