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Jim Bugslag writes: but it is only with the rise of painters' guilds dedicated to St Luke from the late 14th century onwards that it seems appropriate to talk of him as the patron saint of painters. Another factor that may be relevant is that, although there are prominent exceptions, such as St Peter with his keys, the provision of images of saints with characteristic attributes only becomes relatively universal from the late 12th century. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ And, I would venture, commensurate with the development in Europe of what we would come to call representational painting, which won out over the pre-existing symbolically representational art. While this may seem a contradiction - visual symbols gaining prominence as the artwork becomes more narrative/representational and less symbolicly constructed - it makes sense, as I see it, because the "new" art forms gave the artist a richer language with which to express herself/himself. Thus, a portrayal of the Virgin and Child in any three-dimsensional room affords the artist multiple opportunities to comment upon Her or Him; for every visible object, practically, acquires symbolic power. It occurs to me that this is similar to some of the medieval sermons and visions, as well as the legends coming down to us. It would seem obvious, for example, that the concept of the Virgin as an enclosed garden (forgive me for forgetting the appropriate Latin) would gain in power (and poetry) as the artists' capacity to enrich the symbol grew, with the rise of depictions that more nearly mirrored nature. An article of interest (which may well have already been studied at length - Esteemed Listmembers will know) would be to trace the relationships among the artists, visionaries, and sermonizers during these epochs. jmichael %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%