Dear JK,
this is really unacceptable.
See response to my civilized letter.
Thank you.
SM
-- Original Message -----
From: Hugh Tolhurst <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Monday, July 24, 2000 12:34 PM
Subject: Re: A question of logic (EP call home )
> GET FUCKED!
>
> Hugh
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: susanne <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2000 8:30 PM
> Subject: Re: A question of logic (EP call home )
>
>
> > Hi, Hugh,
> >
> > in answer to your question, you are here admitting that the strong
> > metaphorical imagery of
> > the "dead horse" was intended to be referred to the "persona" of
Susanne.
> > If one had to analyze the words as they were disposed on the page
> > in relation to this "persona" as cohenciding with a real being, then
you
> > could have risked to
> > sound offensive, suggesting a death. I imagine you, being a poet, used
> > intentionally this imagery and did not for a moment
> > think one may read it in a literal sense. And indeed I don't . Being a
> > writer, I see this use of imagery as more than legitimate and it made me
> > think of Dali'.
> > The richness of the metaphor is our tool, as writers. So, nobody is
> > complaining about your register and tone.
> >
> > But then, in the same post, you report a sentence
> > which you are supposing me to be the author of, but I might also be not.
> In
> > fact, Hugh,
> > imagine a simpler scenario where I actually asked a student to interact,
> on
> > my behalf, with the list, while I was away,
> > and left her free to play the "persona" she wished to be, and so on...)
> > The incriminating sentence was:
> >
> > " I still find fascinating the idea of
> > > accomplishing the dissolution of ones person by means of
creativeness."
> >
> > Now, for a question of logic, fairness and equality, being you the
author
> of
> > a sentence implying a (dead ) horse
> > (how did the horse die? One could ask...)
> > tell me why do you find offensive Susanne's allusion to a dissolution
"by
> > means of creativeness."?
> > And why the person uttering this sequence of words is now on trial?
> > If one has to analyze in a literal sense Poetryetc list posts, my God,
it
> > would be an endless recrimination.
> > Since language here seems above all a social phenomenon, one bears
> > responsibility collectively for what is being said .
> > There are no ivory towers and everybody is equal exposed.
> >
> > First and foremost, in terms of importance, I wish to ask you if one is
> > necessarily authorized to say that the sentence of poor Susanne ( "
> > dissolution of the person by mean of creativeness")
> > is necessarily to be taken as referring to "concrete" suicide?
> > If we assume the right mental attitude and think linguistically, then
> maybe
> > the basic question here has to be found elsewhere.
> > Then we can proceed to the issue which is probably at the heart of your
> > protest.
> > It is a literary case study, anyhow, suicide among poets, and many of
them
> > ended their lives after having written poems or a letter to offer
> > theoretical justification to their action
> > ("The woman is perfected? her body wears the smile of accomplishment" -
> > Plath .
> > "Tutto questo fa schifo. Non una parola, un gesto" - Pavese, and so
> on...)
> > Susanne was merely alluding to those self-myth-making theories.
> > So, please reconsider under this light
> > what was posted.
> >
> > "Dissolution" is such a wide term and to me, as a reader, it can mean -
as
> > it possibly was intended to meant - that in being creative you might
> > actually transcend and dissolve the ego in favor of a persona.
> > I myself have written my doctoral thesis of suicidal poets
> > and my students know about it. I have studied in detail the work of
Pavese
> > and Plath in connection with the idea (not the actual fact) of such a
> drive
> > as creatively interpretable - in the realm of poetry (of course).
> > And the sentence was quite obvious " dissolution ....by means of
> > creativeness...."
> >
> > By the way, (that message was maybe posted several times because of my
> > student's inexperience with computers and lists.
> > Or maybe because some fault in the machine itself...but I can only make
> > suppositions.)
> > I find "Susanne" as a name very very beautiful. I do not like
> > Erminia(antique, noble, sweet) at all, and when I firs joined the list,
if
> I
> > remember well, in one of my posts I stressed how much I would have
loved
> to
> > be called "Susanne".
> > My student "Sue" is a real person and you surely detected the difference
> in
> > style and content as well probably the mockery imitation of my English.
> I
> > do not make all those horrible spelling mistakes, do I). I might let
her
> > take over sometimes again. She is great fun. Her voice quality is so
> > female - pitch, intonation patterns and her linguistic habits are still
> > those of a teenager.
> > (See her poems.)
> >
> > Warmest regards (from an adult voice)
> >
> >
> > Pseudo-Suisanne
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Hugh Tolhurst <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > Sent: Monday, July 24, 2000 5:27 AM
> > Subject: Re: Holiday in Montecarlo (EP call home )
> >
> >
> > > susanne <[log in to unmask]> wrote:-
> > >
> > > If the dead horse was intended
> > > to be metaphorical,
> > > and you were alluding to me,
> > > you must be right in a way...
> > >
> > > Yes, it was a metaphorical allusion to the
> > > dead horse of your pseudonymous personae.
> > > Some of the things this pseudonym has contributed
> > > to poetryetc were offensive or could easily
> > > be seen as offensive. I refer to the repeated (six
> > > times) posting "poets and suicide" on July 1, which
> > > followed another post called "poets and suicide"
> > > which you signed off:-
> > >
> > > I still find fascinating the idea of
> > > accomplishing the dissolution of ones person by means of creativeness.
> > >
> > >
> > > Susanne
> > >
> > > Youth suicide and mental ill-health was under constructive discussion
at
> > > poetryetc at the time: this sort of stuff (your "suicide posts")
> > > as history, means that your more recent
> > > posts seem disagreeable by association. Alison Croggon
> > > is not wrong to say "Pseudo-Susanna has (I think) made
> > > some interesting points" but as you seem increasingly to
> > > suggest your real identity is Erminia Passananti, can you
> > > please drop the (sometimes offensive) pseudonymous
> > > charade. You should also consider an apology for the
> > > "suicide" posts.
> > >
> > > Your early hoaxing was offensive in context.
> > >
> > > please desist with this particular pseudonym
> > >
> > > yours faithfully
> > >
> > > Hugh Tolhurst
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From:
> > > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 1999 12:24 AM
> > > Subject: Re: Holiday in Montecarlo
> > >
> > >
> > > > pseudonymous Susanna wrote:-
> > > > >
> > > > > "Therefore, to react by telling a
> > > > > satirist that he is
> > > > > being "boring" , is the wrong strategy."
> > > > >
> > > > > & it was 'virtual flogging' that I suggested
> > > > > partly because her virtual horse is dead,
> > > > > decomposing, on the nose, unfunny.
> > > > >
> > > > > unsatirically
> > > > >
> > > > > Hugh
> > > >
> > > > Hugh, I repeat,
> > > >
> > > > I see no "horse" dead or alive , around, and I myself do not wish to
> be
> > > > funny or satirical.
> > > > Far from it. To be honest,
> > > > I see life and human
> > > > interactions and very tragic, stiff, ungenerous, oppressive,
> > undervaluing,
> > > > immature, unstimulating, unproductive and unworthy, ect. ect. etc.#
> > > > (I was talking about exchanged jokes at the expenses of this and
that
> > and
> > > I
> > > > have
> > > > been more than ones the target of it in this list, even when unable
to
> > > > react.
> > > > I don't care, I do not get offended. I am not sensible to it, and
you
> > are
> > > > welcome to
> > > > go on since I do not feel it as personal. ) If the dead horse was
> > intended
> > > > to be metaphorical,
> > > > and you were alluding to me,
> > > > you must be right in a way...quite frankly, Hugh,
> > > > I am not even able to make
> > > > my old neighbor Reginald laugh.
> > > > matter of fact, when people laugh at something I am saying, it is
> never
> > > > for an intentional joke of mine. Their amusement remains a mystery.
> > > >
> > > > Indeed, I am posting Marziale, his satire, not mine. Mine are only
> those
> > > > unrequested and unpaid translations for your to read which I am
> > > > nevertheless
> > > > making from Latin (my language)into a language (English) which is
not
> > > mine
> > > > and that I do not master.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Satirical poetry and theatre?! I like it. That's it.
> > > > And I rather prefer this kind of poetry to that which make my heart
> ache
> > > > with pity.
> > > > I have had already quite a lot one reasons for weeping in my own
life.
> > > > Therefore,
> > > > I read those poets who can transmit some argute insight into out
> common
> > > > sense.
> > > > No point in getting hungry, really.
> > > >
> > > > Susistro
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Hugh Tolhurst <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2000 5:26 AM
> > > > Subject: Holiday in Montecarlo
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
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