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Hi Dominic, Yes, important point. There was commotion a number of years ago regarding an exhibition of Nazi art in one of the London galleries, including propaganda posters and the like. Some voices were opposed, naturally -- those in favour made the point that it is better to know than not to know, or as you say, to remember rather than forget . . . to preserve the cultural context as a source of knowledge. In a similar vein, if we accept the State as author in matters of propaganda, would we hope to obliterate all traces of Communist art? Typographers today are still using elements of this style in their work, most notably in 'Face' magazine (or at least in the early days of production, not sure whether it's continued). Mark looked back to the mediaeval period . . . Christian iconography may also be seen as the polite face of torture, on an unimaginable scale. To >cope, compromise and compartmentalize< about sums it up. There must be very little in the way of art which isn't unsullied somewhere along the line. Having said that, I really can't argue with Ally's position of non- compromise -- >there are limits< for each individual, which are to be respected. Dominic -- your poem. I first read this extract on brit-poets, and find it more powerful when read in the light of this discussion. It would serve as an ideal paradigm in the 'clarity/ difficulty' debate, although perhaps you may not be keen to have it so used . . . . The S.J. quote has also provoked a question with regard to Hill's work -- is it true to say he writes of torture in a sensual fashion? Or perhaps more generally, if writing poetry itself is a sensual act, linguistically, how do we read references to such terrible acts -- if they are 'transfigured' (as they must be) in this way? And how does this reflect (or contradict) Hill's sense of the scrupulous? It is not merely a case of 'saying what happened' surely? I guess I have developed a suspicion of Hill's passion for such details, over the years, and would appreciate your view on the matter. By the way, I would have liked to have seen the complete S.J. quote in the poem, rather than having it amputated . . . just personal pref. Andy %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%