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Just a grammatical correction.Sonia Subject: Re: Men with sisters: a sociological approach? > Men who had sisters belong (sometimes) all together to a different > category THAN those who never had any contact, during their childhood and > adolescence years , > with the female of the species. They tend to analyze female behavior as > hysterical. > Only men who had sisters have learned how easily a sister can > break a wooden chair on her brothers' head and send him to hospital. > The poetry of it! > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask]> > To: <[log in to unmask]> > Sent: Friday, July 07, 2000 10:42 PM > Subject: Re: Plath: a sociological approach? > > > > As good a place to jump in as any. > > > > There are perfectly sane and defensible reasons for committing suicide. In > > Japan traditionally loss of face or disgrace were considered ok reasons, > > and suicide in the face of hopeless illness or, as in Benjamin's case, a > > hopeless situation that could only get much worse, is hard to criticize. > > Schizophrenics sometimes commit suicide because their voices tell them > > to--it doesn't happen as often as one might think, and it's not a good > > thing, but again it's hard to put a moral judgement on it. But the vast > > majority of suicides are histrionic passive aggressive acts on the part of > > very narcissistic people. The problem for the suicide, of course, is that > > he or she has forgotten that she or he won't be there to enjoy the > > results--the act does require at least a degree of delusion, or let's say > > extremely restricted focus. I suspect that Plath fell into this last > category. > > > > Suicide is the ultimate act of revenge--the survivor never recovers, is > > left with unresolvable anger--hard to answer back short of one's own > > suicide. And it's no coincidence that the survivors are far more likely to > > commit suicide themselves than the population at large. So the suicide has > > assumed an unusual power over the intended victim. Among the problems with > > this form of revenge is that the damage is spread much wider: let's say > > that Plath's target was Hughes. Those who suffered most and are > > statistically at far greater risk are her children. > > > > When I've been at least in fantasy on the brink (rather different than > when > > I really was during the long psychosis we call adolescence) what's pulled > > me back from even considering the idea seriously is what it would do to > > Carlos. That's because I'm not all that narcissistic--other people really > > do exist. > > > > Therapists rate the seriousness of suicide risk among other things on the > > basis of the method the patient proposes. The more violent, hence > > irrevocable, the means the more serious and imminent the threat. So > gunshot > > is near the top, then hanging (one could be found) then wrist-slitting > (one > > could be found and one could also call emergency) and pills and gas near > > the bottom--for the reasons given for wrist-slitting, but also because, > for > > pills, it takes a long time, dosage is uncertain, and one could vomit them > > up, for gas because few houses are that well-sealed and if one happens to > > fall away from the stove after passing out it really takes a long time, > > hence more opportunity for discovery. The histrionic suicide attempt--the > > suicide found in time--is passive-aggressive behavior in its purest form. > > > > It happens that women commit suicide by means of drugs or gas more often > > than men, perhaps because men are more likely to have weapons, because > > women who don't work outside the home spend more time alone inside the > > home, or because men are more likely to express themselves violently > > against self or others. There have been feminist explanations, but it's > > good to remember that the mortality from avoidable causes is considerably > > higher among young men than among young women. Women may commit histrionic > > suicide attempts more often, men tend to be more successful at dying. > > > > The practical application of the differential suicide screen is that if I > > find out that a patient is thinking about shooting himself and he (It's > > almost always a he) has a gun I'm likely to have him committed for suicide > > watch. If a patient tells me she's thinking of doing away with herself by > > pills I can often get her through it by provoking her anger or by > > contracting with me not to kill herself before speaking to me--me, not my > > phone machine--before she does anything. Believe it or not, that last > > tactic is close to infallible. If the patient won't contract it's straight > > to the hospital. > > > > It seems to be almost universally assumed in Plath's case that Hughes > drove > > her to it. I'm suggesting that Plath responded in only one of the possible > > ways. And I would doubt that her passive-aggressiveness was limited to her > > suicide. It's I think folly to speculate about what happens in the > intimacy > > of other people's marriages, but it's usually a safe bet that each partner > > gives as good as he or she gets, altho perhaps in different currency. > > Hughes and Plath had a marriage that became lousy and they each acted out. > > Plath's acting out was suicide. > > > > As to her hard row as a woman writer, there were many enormously powerful > > woman writers at the time. I'm thinking about Lillian Hellman, Elizabeth > > Hardwick, Mary McCarthy, Doris Lessing, Hannah Arendt--it's a long list. > > Whatever impediments were placed in the paths of women some women > > notoriously got past them. I've never understood why this was truer of > > prose--as it had been from before the beginning of the nineteenth > > century--than of verse. One would think that the boys would have tried > > harder to control the money-earning areas of literature and would have > > relegated the women to the genteel poverty of poets. It may be that more > > talented, forceful women chose, in whatever sense one chooses, to write > > prose. That doesn't answer the why. > > > > > > At 12:16 PM 7/7/2000 -0700, you wrote: > > >Just a thought re Plath - can the hysteria in her > > >poetry, the sense of isolation, of terrible > > >alienation, the solipsism - be explained by reference > > >to the social conditions that obtained in her lifetime > > >in England and the US? She was really too early to > > >ride the wave of militant collectivist feminism, yet > > >in her life she seemed to encounter many of the > > >problems that drove that movement(maybe Ted Hughes > > >exemplified the reasons why the world needed, and > > >still needs, a feminist movement!). Perhaps her > > >terrible 'existential' isolation can be traced to the > > >huge and isolating obstacles placed in her way by a > > >sexist society? I am struck by the similarity between > > >Plath' > > >s nihilism and hysteria and the 'theoretical' work of > > >the 'Radical (separatist) Feminists' - most famously, > > >of Andrea 'all men are rapists and should be > > >eliminated' Dworkin - who emerged in the 80s, another > > >time of conservatism and attacks on womens rights in > > >the USA and the UK. Have any critics talked up this > > >parrallel (must admit I'm not much up on the Plath > > >lit crit )? > > > > > >Cheers > > >Scott Hamilton > > > > > >===== > > >"Why is it not possible for me to doubt that I have never been on the > > moon? And how > > >could I try to doubt it? First and foremost, the supposition that > perhaps > > I have > > >been there would strike me as idle. Nothing would follow from it, > nothing > > be > > >explained by it. It would not tie in with anything in my life... > > Philosophical > > >problems occur when language goes on holiday. We must not separate ideas > > from life, > > >we must not be misled by the appearances of sentences: we must > investigate > > the > > >application of words in individual language-games" - Ludwig > Wittgenstein > > > > > >__________________________________________________ > > >Do You Yahoo!? > > >Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. > > >http://im.yahoo.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%