i'm not sure why in this day and age a potentially fruitful debate like this promises to be should be relegated to the establishment's stone cold archives. should be on the web? tom bell Maria Damon wrote: > > Subsubpoetics > > since ben friedlander is listening in on and participating in this > conversation, i think he's in the best position to pursue an NPF-related > venture if he thinks it's fruitful. > > At 2:25 PM -0500 7/4/00, kent johnson wrote: > >Who will contact Hatlen, then? Would he then raise the idea with BW and AB? > >Let's be as specific as possible about pursuing this. It would be a shame if > >the opening of this dialogue between two "representative" figures like > >Baraka and Watten were not pursued into written debate on these embryonic > >issues (and again, I think the listserv forum is ideal, as it allows others > >to follow along inn real time, interject questions, ideas, etc.). It seems > >Baraka feels frustrated about some things and has some strong points to > >make. If "representation" has been a problem, then wouldn't extending an > >invitation to Baraka to meet on the mat with Watten _in real-time written > >exchange_ be a reasonable thing to do? Would Watten be game? I repeat the > >proposal. > > > >Kent > > > >>From: Maria Damon <[log in to unmask]> > >>To: "kent johnson" <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask] > >>Subject: Re: watten v baraka > >>Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 13:21:34 -0600 > >> > >>Subsubpoetics > >> > >>i'd be reluctant to ask barrett and amiri to give more of themselves in > >>this venture, at least as a private citizen --though i think if burton > >>and/or members of the npf wanted to pursue this with an eye toward > >>generating a concrete record (text, etc) it might be very valuable. the > >>npf is in desperate need of what is now called, euphemistically, > >>"diversification," or in my view politicization, and could only be > >>strengthened by taking on this kind of debate as relevant to its mission. > >>further, I disagree with jacques that "poetry" was not part of the > >>discussion; in fact, it seemed that the most ire was aroused when > >>theparticipants felt that their particular brand of poetic practice > >>(Language/ Black Arts Movement) was being mischaracterized by the other. I > >>found this fascinating. > >> > >>At 11:21 AM -0500 7/4/00, kent johnson wrote: > >> >It would be interesting --and maybe more clarifying-- to have Watten and > >> >Baraka continue this debate in writing. What chance would there be of > >> >getting them both to do that here at subsub and/or Poetics? The exchange > >> >could then be published, of course, for wider audience. Perhaps Maria, > >>since > >> >you moderated, you could query them ? > >> > > >> >Kent > >> > > >> >>From: Maria Damon <[log in to unmask]> > >> >>To: [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask] > >> >>Subject: Re: watten v baraka > >> >>Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 10:44:36 -0600 > >> >> > >> >>Subsubpoetics > >> >> > >> >>At 8:27 AM -0400 7/4/00, [log in to unmask] wrote: > >> >> >Subsubpoetics > >> >> > >> >> >Anyway, the stage for the Watten/Baraka confrontation was set the > >>evening > >> >> >before after Watten had given a talk called "The Turn to Language > >>after > >> >>the > >> >> >1960s" focusing on the Berkeley Free speech Movement which Watten > >>sees > >> >>as > >> >> >being the seedbed of Language Poetry. The talk itself was actually > >>quite > >> >> >brilliant, & whereas the evening before Perloff had been unable to get > >> >>the > >> >> >slide projector working for her own lecture, Watten faultlessly ran > >> >>films, > >> >> >photographs, charts, etc, off of his computer. But meanwhile, Baraka, > >> >>all > >> >> >this time, had been scribbling away furiously in a large notebook-- I > >> >>mean, > >> >> >he was so excited he actually got up & left the hall a couple of times > >> >>from > >> >> >the very back of the auditorium where he was sitting. So when Watten > >> >>was > >> >> >done, & Perloff opened the floor to questions everybody knew what was > >> >>coming. > >> >> > But you could tell, too, that Baraka was absolutely the last person > >>in > >> >>the > >> >> >world whom Perloff wanted to acknowledge (not least because he had > >> >>publicly > >> >> >laid a "curse" on her head during his own reading the night > >> >>before--another > >> >> >story!!). Basically, Baraka's initial complaint was that Watten & the > >> >> >Language poets were complicit with the state in profiting > >>professionally > >> >>(as > >> >> >teachers, etc.) from an ostensibly oppositionalist, but, in reality, > >> >>sterile, > >> >> >purely text-based, & so enervated, critique of society. There was > >>some > >> >> >colorful & heated back & forth, but no time really for a full > >>exchange. > >> >>In > >> >> >the end, Watten challenged Baraka to continue their discussion in a > >> >>public > >> >> >forum at the earliest opportunity. Baraka accepted. & Ben arranged > >>for > >> >>the > >> >> >two to meet, w/ Maria's tactful moderation, in front of an audience of > >> >>about > >> >> >75 (?) of us the next day at noon. > >> >> > > >> >> >Now here was Baraka's problem as it seemed to me (& which, as I'll > >> >>explain, > >> >> >he brilliantly solved, in a way): **Like every other other New > >>American > >> >>Poet > >> >> >that I know about**, Baraka could care less about postmodern critical > >> >>theory. > >> >> > But he can't make the same oblique negotiation of it that a lot of > >>the > >> >>other > >> >> >NAPs do because, unlike them, he has, himself, a competing (Marxist) > >> >>theory > >> >> >(one that is as sophisiticated as Watten's, but which at the same time > >> >>lacks, > >> >> >really, if the truth be told, a persuasive critique of discourses like > >> >> >Watten's). If Baraka knew more about post structuralism and so on (if > >>he > >> >> >thought it was relevant) his critique would be more persuasive--but > >>like > >> >>I > >> >> >said, that's not where his head is at--so, there was a certain > >>knowledge > >> >>that > >> >> >Watten (alone , of the two) possessed & that he could use as a form of > >> >>power > >> >> >against Baraka. That Baraka was himself aware of this was evident in > >>the > >> >>way > >> >> >he continually described Watten's position as one of "neutrality" & > >> >> >priviledge. Watten, he said, claimed to be able to analyze the > >> >>oppression of > >> >> >the state and to describe the "impossible" ideology of Marxist > >>activists, > >> >>but > >> >> >was incapable, himself, of defining a course of oppositionalist > >>"action," > >> >> >except in the most rarified way. Baraka seemed to get hung up, in > >>fact, > >> >>on > >> >> >the terms "irrational/impossible revolt" (the terms Watten had used > >>for > >> >> >Ginsberg's & the Berkeley Free Speech Movement's opposition to the > >>Univ > >> >> >administrators, etc.) & (the state's, according to Watten) "rational > >> >> >oppression," believing that Watten's own language--even if, by the > >>term > >> >> >rational, for instance, Watten wasn't actually saying that it **was** > >> >> >rational--was already conceding too much. Baraka also objected to > >> >>Watten's > >> >> >characterization of Mao's Little Red Book as an empty signifier (the > >> >>Panthers > >> >> >were selling it--months before they ever read it--to students for $$ > >>to > >> >>buy > >> >> >guns), identifying Watten's position, ultimately, as I've said, as > >> >> >accomodationist, Trotskyite, etc. He sees Watten, I think, as someone > >> >>who > >> >> >relegates Berkeley-style activism to the past, & whose politics are > >> >>entirely > >> >> >divorced from the street, the third world, the bedroom and so on. > >>But > >> >> >again, Baraka just didn't seem to have the kind of knowledge that > >>would > >> >> >prevail over Watten if the terms of the debate were those that Watten > >> >>himself > >> >> >has down cold. The debate then was really one of competing rhetorics. > >> >>At > >> >> >one point, for instance, Baraka asked Watten why the language poets > >> >>didn't > >> >> >use words like "fuck" in their poems. Now of course they do, come on. > >> >>But > >> >> >instead of pointing this out, Watten seemed to use this as permission > >>to > >> >> >respond to Baraka's barb, a few minutes later, that Watten must have > >> >>always > >> >> >had a comfortable income, by saying that, no, that that was > >>"bullshit," > >> >>that > >> >> >he (Watten) had been "fucking" poor for years. Of course, you had to > >> >>have > >> >> >been there, but words like "fuck" and "shit" are not ones that Watten > >> >>seems > >> >> >to use easily. & Baraka picked right up on that--it was uncanny-- > >> >>calling > >> >> >Watten out everytime he (Watten) swore, but retaining, somehow, the > >>right > >> >>to > >> >> >swear himself probably because he (Baraka) always manages to swear > >> >> >*artfully*. I mean, this was a fascinating development for me--you > >>could > >> >>see > >> >> >that Baraka is a born dramatist by the way he subtlely controlled the > >> >> >dialogue from that point on--even if, on its face, he was pretty badly > >> >> >outmatched argumentitively. In fact, he closed the debate by > >>brilliantly > >> >> >employing the word "fuck"--I forget exactly how--after having promised > >> >>about > >> >> >midway through the discussion to use the word only once in response to > >> >> >Watten's using it. Anyway, I could go on & on, but I won't. Was it > >> >> >useful--whatever that means--probably not, though the most > >>concilliatory > >> >> >moment seemed to be instigated by Maria's question to Watten--how can > >>I > >> >>teach > >> >> >Language poetry as a form of resistance to anti-imperialism?--which > >> >>Watten > >> >> >handled very deftly. &, of course, it was terrific theater--a tape of > >> >>the > >> >> >debate actualy exists & will be distributed soon--perhaps--though I > >>hope > >> >> >not-- disproving some of my own recollections here. > >> >> > > >> >> >--Jacques > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>just acoupla points jacques: baraka never swore until watten did. then > >>he > >> >>said, oh you said four bad words, i'm gonna use four bad words by the > >>time > >> >>the debate is over. the final "fuck" was in "motherfucking" something > >>or > >> >>other, and it closed the debate amid laughter and applause. barrett did > >> >>not, i felt, handle my question about teaching the langpos as > >> >>anti-imperialist deftly, mostly because he was not allowed to develop > >>his > >> >>answer because baraka interrupted impatiently. barrett started to > >> >>recommend bruce andrews's i dont have anymore paper so shut up, or > >>social > >> >>romanticism, which he said was a record of various vernaculars heard on > >>a > >> >>subway or bus in NYC, and baraka interrupted to say that that hardly > >> >>constituted an anti-imperialist poem per se (and he's potentially right, > >>it > >> >>could be justa populist "local color" thing, but who knows, since > >>barrett > >> >>didn't develop his answer). you seem to feel that barrett "won" because > >>of > >> >>his superior grasp of poststructuralist theory. i disagree; i thought > >>that > >> >>each was able to clarify some good points; barrett especially at the end > >> >>when he said, in an apparent burst of impatience, that strategies and > >> >>rhetorics have to change, that as capital and imperialism changes, so > >>must > >> >>our tactics and strategies to counter them. i thought baraka also had > >>many > >> >>good points; among them that langpo makes great claims about its > >>political > >> >>engagements but is v divorced from politics on the ground. and so > >>forth. > >> >>i enjoyed it thoroughly not the least because of the goodwill of both > >> >>speakers and their sense of commitment to debate. also, i wouldn't say > >>that > >> >>watten "challenged" baraka to a discussion but that he "invited" further > >> >>discussion; it was definitely a high point in the conference in terms of > >> >>energy, politics, engagement with the 60s, etc. and your precis is > >>clearly > >> >>a labor of love as it details very fairly the high level of involvement > >>and > >> >>intelligence of the two speakers. thanks! > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>______________________________________________________________________ > >> >>To unsubscribe, write to [log in to unmask] > >> >> > >> >>Start Your Own FREE Email List at http://www.listbot.com/links/joinlb > >> > > >> >________________________________________________________________________ > >> >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > >> > >> > >>______________________________________________________________________ > >>To unsubscribe, write to [log in to unmask] > >> > >>Start Your Own FREE Email List at http://www.listbot.com/links/joinlb > > > >________________________________________________________________________ > >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > ______________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, write to [log in to unmask] > > Start Your Own FREE Email List at http://www.listbot.com/links/joinlb -- Life designs: http://trbell.tripod.com/lifedesigns/ index of online work at http://members.home.net/trbell essays: http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/criticism/ =-///>>>``'|\_ SOULSOLESOLO <<<]]] %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%