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This exchange made me sit up. Not because of the American link, in fact I suspect that the people Roddy excludes from "British" are perhaps most recognised as such in the US. Or am I wrong? What really made me sit up was this notion of invisibility. And the encampments of comfy new gen versus barking avants (the hyperbole all mine). Here's that super list again: Tom Raworth, Allen Fisher, Denise Riley, cris cheek, Maggie O'Sullivan, Grace Lake, Peter Riley, Andrew Duncan, Wendy Mulford, Alan Halsey, Tony Lopez, Drew Milne, Geraldine Monk, Doug Oliver, Ken Edwards, John Wilkinson, Aaron Williamson, Caitriona Strang, Rod Mengham, Barry MacSweeney, Helen MacDonald, Bill Griffiths, Gael Turnbull, Fiona Templeton, Tim Allen, David Annwn, Tertia Longmire, Gavin Selerie I wanted to explore Randolph's question of forced. So, when it comes to exclusion, let's raise some healthy questions. Most of the above have been publishing for a considerable time. How many times have books by the above been reviewed in the Sunday Times? How many times have books by the above been reviewed in the The Observer? How many times have books by the above been reviewed in the The TLS? How many times have books by the above been reviewed in the the LRB? How many of their books have been selected as Poetry Book Society choices or recommendations? How many of their books have featured in a short list (or long list) for the TS Eliot prize? How many of their books have been reviewed in Poetry Review? How many of their books were considered for poetry in schools? How many have read in the Voice Box? How many appeared in the Rattle Bag? How many appeared in the The Firebox? How many appeared in Scanning the Century? How many of the poets have appeared on TV arts programmes? We could compile a much longer list, but if we really want to talk about pluralism and value difference in the UK, we should start with an examination of who manufactures our experience of what poetry is. It starts in schools anthologies (where Bloodaxe currently hold an interesting position), but we have to look to the media too. Go on Roddy, why not review one of the above, any of the above for PR? Let's break own some barriers. Forced? Perhaps it's really a question of power. In the Lukes sense of controlling choices, or even the appearance of having choices to make. Perplexed Chris %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%