i agree that all forms of abuse are unacceptable. however, there is a history of perceived intimidation that leaves me no choice but to ask you to leave the list. i will remove you if needs be, but feel that given the ways things are that maybe you'd prefer to leave voluntarily. to other list members: please b-c me with complaints rather than using the list in this way. it's strictly out of bounds. thanks best, jk _______________________________________________________________________________ John Kinsella Churchill College Cambridge CB3 ODS England. http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Square/8574/ On Wed, 20 Oct 1999, susanne wrote: > Dear JK, > > this is really unacceptable. > See response to my civilized letter. > Thank you. > > SM > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Original Message ----- > From: Hugh Tolhurst <[log in to unmask]> > To: <[log in to unmask]> > Sent: Monday, July 24, 2000 12:34 PM > Subject: Re: A question of logic (EP call home ) > > > > GET FUCKED! > > > > Hugh > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: susanne <[log in to unmask]> > > To: <[log in to unmask]> > > Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2000 8:30 PM > > Subject: Re: A question of logic (EP call home ) > > > > > > > Hi, Hugh, > > > > > > in answer to your question, you are here admitting that the strong > > > metaphorical imagery of > > > the "dead horse" was intended to be referred to the "persona" of > Susanne. > > > If one had to analyze the words as they were disposed on the page > > > in relation to this "persona" as cohenciding with a real being, then > you > > > could have risked to > > > sound offensive, suggesting a death. I imagine you, being a poet, used > > > intentionally this imagery and did not for a moment > > > think one may read it in a literal sense. And indeed I don't . Being a > > > writer, I see this use of imagery as more than legitimate and it made me > > > think of Dali'. > > > The richness of the metaphor is our tool, as writers. So, nobody is > > > complaining about your register and tone. > > > > > > But then, in the same post, you report a sentence > > > which you are supposing me to be the author of, but I might also be not. > > In > > > fact, Hugh, > > > imagine a simpler scenario where I actually asked a student to interact, > > on > > > my behalf, with the list, while I was away, > > > and left her free to play the "persona" she wished to be, and so on...) > > > The incriminating sentence was: > > > > > > " I still find fascinating the idea of > > > > accomplishing the dissolution of ones person by means of > creativeness." > > > > > > Now, for a question of logic, fairness and equality, being you the > author > > of > > > a sentence implying a (dead ) horse > > > (how did the horse die? One could ask...) > > > tell me why do you find offensive Susanne's allusion to a dissolution > "by > > > means of creativeness."? > > > And why the person uttering this sequence of words is now on trial? > > > If one has to analyze in a literal sense Poetryetc list posts, my God, > it > > > would be an endless recrimination. > > > Since language here seems above all a social phenomenon, one bears > > > responsibility collectively for what is being said . > > > There are no ivory towers and everybody is equal exposed. > > > > > > First and foremost, in terms of importance, I wish to ask you if one is > > > necessarily authorized to say that the sentence of poor Susanne ( " > > > dissolution of the person by mean of creativeness") > > > is necessarily to be taken as referring to "concrete" suicide? > > > If we assume the right mental attitude and think linguistically, then > > maybe > > > the basic question here has to be found elsewhere. > > > Then we can proceed to the issue which is probably at the heart of your > > > protest. > > > It is a literary case study, anyhow, suicide among poets, and many of > them > > > ended their lives after having written poems or a letter to offer > > > theoretical justification to their action > > > ("The woman is perfected? her body wears the smile of accomplishment" - > > > Plath . > > > "Tutto questo fa schifo. Non una parola, un gesto" - Pavese, and so > > on...) > > > Susanne was merely alluding to those self-myth-making theories. > > > So, please reconsider under this light > > > what was posted. > > > > > > "Dissolution" is such a wide term and to me, as a reader, it can mean - > as > > > it possibly was intended to meant - that in being creative you might > > > actually transcend and dissolve the ego in favor of a persona. > > > I myself have written my doctoral thesis of suicidal poets > > > and my students know about it. I have studied in detail the work of > Pavese > > > and Plath in connection with the idea (not the actual fact) of such a > > drive > > > as creatively interpretable - in the realm of poetry (of course). > > > And the sentence was quite obvious " dissolution ....by means of > > > creativeness...." > > > > > > By the way, (that message was maybe posted several times because of my > > > student's inexperience with computers and lists. > > > Or maybe because some fault in the machine itself...but I can only make > > > suppositions.) > > > I find "Susanne" as a name very very beautiful. I do not like > > > Erminia(antique, noble, sweet) at all, and when I firs joined the list, > if > > I > > > remember well, in one of my posts I stressed how much I would have > loved > > to > > > be called "Susanne". > > > My student "Sue" is a real person and you surely detected the difference > > in > > > style and content as well probably the mockery imitation of my English. > > I > > > do not make all those horrible spelling mistakes, do I). I might let > her > > > take over sometimes again. She is great fun. Her voice quality is so > > > female - pitch, intonation patterns and her linguistic habits are still > > > those of a teenager. > > > (See her poems.) > > > > > > Warmest regards (from an adult voice) > > > > > > > > > Pseudo-Suisanne > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Hugh Tolhurst <[log in to unmask]> > > > To: <[log in to unmask]> > > > Sent: Monday, July 24, 2000 5:27 AM > > > Subject: Re: Holiday in Montecarlo (EP call home ) > > > > > > > > > > susanne <[log in to unmask]> wrote:- > > > > > > > > If the dead horse was intended > > > > to be metaphorical, > > > > and you were alluding to me, > > > > you must be right in a way... > > > > > > > > Yes, it was a metaphorical allusion to the > > > > dead horse of your pseudonymous personae. > > > > Some of the things this pseudonym has contributed > > > > to poetryetc were offensive or could easily > > > > be seen as offensive. I refer to the repeated (six > > > > times) posting "poets and suicide" on July 1, which > > > > followed another post called "poets and suicide" > > > > which you signed off:- > > > > > > > > I still find fascinating the idea of > > > > accomplishing the dissolution of ones person by means of creativeness. > > > > > > > > > > > > Susanne > > > > > > > > Youth suicide and mental ill-health was under constructive discussion > at > > > > poetryetc at the time: this sort of stuff (your "suicide posts") > > > > as history, means that your more recent > > > > posts seem disagreeable by association. Alison Croggon > > > > is not wrong to say "Pseudo-Susanna has (I think) made > > > > some interesting points" but as you seem increasingly to > > > > suggest your real identity is Erminia Passananti, can you > > > > please drop the (sometimes offensive) pseudonymous > > > > charade. You should also consider an apology for the > > > > "suicide" posts. > > > > > > > > Your early hoaxing was offensive in context. > > > > > > > > please desist with this particular pseudonym > > > > > > > > yours faithfully > > > > > > > > Hugh Tolhurst > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: > > > > To: <[log in to unmask]> > > > > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 1999 12:24 AM > > > > Subject: Re: Holiday in Montecarlo > > > > > > > > > > > > > pseudonymous Susanna wrote:- > > > > > > > > > > > > "Therefore, to react by telling a > > > > > > satirist that he is > > > > > > being "boring" , is the wrong strategy." > > > > > > > > > > > > & it was 'virtual flogging' that I suggested > > > > > > partly because her virtual horse is dead, > > > > > > decomposing, on the nose, unfunny. > > > > > > > > > > > > unsatirically > > > > > > > > > > > > Hugh > > > > > > > > > > Hugh, I repeat, > > > > > > > > > > I see no "horse" dead or alive , around, and I myself do not wish to > > be > > > > > funny or satirical. > > > > > Far from it. To be honest, > > > > > I see life and human > > > > > interactions and very tragic, stiff, ungenerous, oppressive, > > > undervaluing, > > > > > immature, unstimulating, unproductive and unworthy, ect. ect. etc.# > > > > > (I was talking about exchanged jokes at the expenses of this and > that > > > and > > > > I > > > > > have > > > > > been more than ones the target of it in this list, even when unable > to > > > > > react. > > > > > I don't care, I do not get offended. I am not sensible to it, and > you > > > are > > > > > welcome to > > > > > go on since I do not feel it as personal. ) If the dead horse was > > > intended > > > > > to be metaphorical, > > > > > and you were alluding to me, > > > > > you must be right in a way...quite frankly, Hugh, > > > > > I am not even able to make > > > > > my old neighbor Reginald laugh. > > > > > matter of fact, when people laugh at something I am saying, it is > > never > > > > > for an intentional joke of mine. Their amusement remains a mystery. > > > > > > > > > > Indeed, I am posting Marziale, his satire, not mine. Mine are only > > those > > > > > unrequested and unpaid translations for your to read which I am > > > > > nevertheless > > > > > making from Latin (my language)into a language (English) which is > not > > > > mine > > > > > and that I do not master. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Satirical poetry and theatre?! I like it. That's it. > > > > > And I rather prefer this kind of poetry to that which make my heart > > ache > > > > > with pity. > > > > > I have had already quite a lot one reasons for weeping in my own > life. > > > > > Therefore, > > > > > I read those poets who can transmit some argute insight into out > > common > > > > > sense. > > > > > No point in getting hungry, really. > > > > > > > > > > Susistro > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: Hugh Tolhurst <[log in to unmask]> > > > > > To: <[log in to unmask]> > > > > > Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2000 5:26 AM > > > > > Subject: Holiday in Montecarlo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%