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i am recommending to you julian jaynes book on the origins of consciousness ... (long title). all you need to read are the intro, the first chapter, and the afterword. after this you will hopefully be convinced that there are huge differences between doing something, being aware of doing something, including the things being affected by it, and being aware of that awareness (which he suggest is where consciousness starts). consciousness is a personal experience, not sharable, not observable in others. but we can use a particular vocabulary to talk about consciousness and observe what someone does when s/he accounts for that behavior in terms of this vocabulary. there is no way to know whether someone else intends to do what i see s/he is doing unless s/he tells me, or unless i can rely on past assertions concerning these actions to impute intentions (and still be mistaken). there is no need to define design in mentalistic terms. i just made up a good definition of design: designers project a desirable future that would not come about without their actions. so, to project a future means narrating that future (to us), compellingly i should add. within that future, designers recommend that we take certain actions, promising desirable results. here the criterion is not mentality but your and my understanding of what the designer tells us. (since you ask the question, you will have to be part of the answer, via your understanding). klaus At 01:51 PM 10/21/00 +1000, Norm Sheehan wrote: >Hi Keith and Klaus > >you wrote > >i would be hesitant to require unascertainable > >> consciousness as part of the definition of design. > >other areas, such as my cognition > >of my cognition are not open to others and yet this is the part it would > >seem that others wish to claim access to. > > >these statements puzzle me in a number of ways... so to be 'cheeky' as we >put it... i thought i would attempt to ask questions (though i believe >there are much more able 'question askers' on this list) > >how would you define design without reference to counsciousness? > >what is this seperation in thought processes (as my cognition of my >cognition)from design? > >is it possible explain the 'Can there be an intention beyond my intention >that is evident in my construction'in relerence to the artistic process of >revisitation in design? > >Norm > > >[log in to unmask] >Norman Sheehan >Senior Research Officer >Aboriginal & Torres Strait Islander Studies Unit >University of Queensland >Brisbane Old 4072 Australia klaus krippendorff gregory bateson professor for cybernetics, language, and culture the annenberg school for communication university of pennsylvania 3620 walnut street; philadelphia, pa 19104-6220 telephone: 215.898.7051 (office); 215.545.9356 (home) fax: 215.898.2024 (office); 215.545.9357 (home) e-mail: [log in to unmask] www.asc.upenn.edu/usr/krippendorff/index.html