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I am not a member of the Mormon Church, and do not believe their scriptures. However the Book of Mormon appears to describe a civilisation in America founded by migrants from Israel. I have always presumed that no one but the Latter Day Saints, takes the Book of Mormon seriously as a historical document. This contrasts with what Christians refer to as the Old Testament, most of which is clearly a historical document dealing with real events, whose actual occurrence in some cases can be corroborated from independent historical and archaeological sources. This gives the Mormons a major problem as to the veracity of their scriptures, and it is hardly surprising that Mormon propagandists should seek to find support for their scriptures in the work of archaeologists on the cultures of Central and North America. No doubt there are others on this list who are much better qualified to deal with technical issues of metallurgy and geology, and some have already replied, but for what it is worth I will put my oar in. If what I am saying is nonsense no doubt some one will shoot me down. I suspect I will also receive complaints as to my views from members of the Church of Latter Saints, but that is a risk that I must run. I fully appreciate that such religious issues are not the normal subject matter of this list, but since they have been raised, I do not see why they should go unanswered. Magnetite and haematite are oxides of iron and have long been used as the raw material for making iron. Iron carbonate minerals are also useful for this purpose. However iron pyrites is iron sulphide and is not suitable for making iron because almost any sulphur left in iron as an impurity renders it 'redshort', that is liable to shear at red heat. This is an unforgivable fault in iron, because it renders it impossible to forge it either into a bar or into a useable product. This is one of the main reasons why coal was not used to make iron until about the 18th century. I understand that some kind of iron ore is sometimes found along the edge of veins of metals such as copper and lead, whose useful minerals include their sulphides and such minerals were worked on a considerable scale in County Durham in the 19th century, but these are not the main minerals from which iron is obtained. Iron pyrites is a well known mineral and has (or at least had) commercial uses, but not in the production of iron. The quotation from the Book of Mormon, whose veracity the Mormon Website quoted is seeking to justify is thus essentially improbable, because gold, copper, and silver on the one hand and iron on the other are unlikely normally to have been worked together in antiquity, even if iron had been smelted in Pre-Columban America, which is a matter with which others more knowledgeable than I have already dealt. Peter King ----- Original Message ----- From: Doug Weller <[log in to unmask]> To: <[log in to unmask]> Sent: 01 May 2000 21:48 Subject: Iron Oxide & Olmec Iron > I've found this statement on a Mormon web site: > > "David Palmer comments on the knowledge of metals among the ancient Olmec > culture in Central America, predating the Mayans (David A. Palmer, In > Search of Cumorah, Horizon Publishers, Bountiful, Utah, 1981, p. 114:) > > A particularly remarkable find is the discovery of iron mirrors used by the > Olmecs. Small flat mirrors were manufactured in Oaxaca at the town of San > José Mogote from about 1000-850 B.C. Some of these flat mirrors, found in > the workshops there, are on display in the town museum. . . .The metal > worked at San José Mogote was magnetite, a form of iron. It was extracted > from one of the score of ancient iron mines in the Oaxaca valley. Four > mines in the valley of Oaxaca have been identified as the source of ores > used at that time. [Jane W. Ferreira, "Shell and Iron Ore Exchange in > Formative Mesoamerica, with Comments on Other Commodities," The Early > American Village, ed. K.V. Flanner, Academic Press, New York, 1976, p. > 317.] > The iron mines of the Olmecs may be related to the mining of the Jaredites, > who during at least era "did cast up mighty heaps of earth to get ore, of > gold, and of silver, and of iron, and of copper" (Ether 10:23). > Palmer also notes that several conical lumps of iron oxide were discovered > in a Tomb in Kaminaljuyu, near present Guatemala City, possibly the site of > the ancient City of Nephi, which could be evidence for the use of ancient > iron in that area (the original iron in the humid environment there would > corrode, leaving iron oxide). " > > Can anyone help me with it? In particular, the last paragraph. I thought > iron oxide was iron pyrite? And is that really > what would happen to iron left in a humid environment? He seems to be > claiming that rust is iron oxide, but conical > lumps of rust? > > Thanks. > > Doug > -- > Doug Weller Moderator, sci.archaeology.moderated > Submissions to:[log in to unmask] > Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.demon.co.uk > Co-owner UK-Schools mailing list: email me for details > > %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%