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Next you'll be saying that the Holocaust didn't exist. The FACT of the matter is people are still dying from AIDS related illnesses and it is this fact that we should be addressing. -----Original Message----- From: Jim Hodges [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: 22 August 2000 21:47 To: [log in to unmask] Cc: carlton hogan Subject: HIV dissidents again > Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 13:32:45 +0100 (BST) > From: Norman Marsh <[log in to unmask]> > To: [log in to unmask] > Cc: Norman Marsh <[log in to unmask]> > Subject: Seeking text of invitation to sign the Durban Declaration > > Allstat subscribers may recognise me as one who disbelieves the > HIV Hypothesis : that AIDS is due to HIV, and has urged that > statisticians should be playing a role in campaigning for better > scientific reasoning in this field. (rest of Marsh message below) Two Key Points: 1) as to his griping about "non-experts" - even those "dissidents" who are credentialed almost inevitably are arguing out of their filed of expertise, i.e. Duesberg arguing epidemiology, or Mullis (a chemist) arguing immunology. In that, to my knowledge, Steven Lanka and Duesberg are properly credentialed when speaking virology (and those two disagree if HIV exists!), and Mullis is, I guess, qualified to talk about PCR Although in Mullis' argument against "viral load" testing, he claims that any form of quantitative PCR is impossible - obviously a news flash to the thousands of scientists outside of AIDS who use it every day, as it is to all those who did the QC research on inter and intra-measure variation, and the FDA reviewers (which brings to mind one of my favorite "dissident" rhetorical dishonesties - when discussing "viral load" - HIV RNA measure by PCR, bDNA, or NASBA, which oddly enough, all correlate nicely - the classic dissident tag line is "these experimental tests are not even approved by the US FDA for diagnosis of HIV infection" -- which is literally true: they are approved for _staging_. And let's not forget to mention the negative and positive controls that are run with EVERY PCR run. Virtually none of the public dissidents are even generally qualified in the field, and to my knowledge, not one cvould be called an "AIDS Expert" (and to ensure that there isn't boostrapping in my definition of AIDS expert, let's define that as anyone who has done any published AIDS research that is not in the nature of review or edirorializing) 2) The Durban Declaration was _not_ in any way initiated by the conference organizers. Independent academics in the US and Europe drafted and disseminated it. Much of their impetus was the wholesale barrage of anti-HIV propaganda (none of it from "AIDS experts"). One of the driving concerns motivating this document was that only the most rigorous scientific data should drive this debate, not some stew of plausible scenaria, insinuations, implications, and neo-luddism. By the way, I do not use that term lightly. Many of the luminaries of the "AIDS dissident" movement are creationists, notably Philip Johnson (a law professor at Berkely - one of the "AIDS experts" driving the "dissident" train), and the software mogul who is underwriting ACT-UP San Francisco. It seems that this righteous indignation your pal Norman feels about "non-AIDS-experts" is quite the petard to self-hoist with. Carlton Feel free to quote the above points. "Jim Hodges writes to say:" > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 13:32:45 +0100 (BST) > From: Norman Marsh <[log in to unmask]> > To: [log in to unmask] > Cc: Norman Marsh <[log in to unmask]> > Subject: Seeking text of invitation to sign the Durban Declaration > > Allstat subscribers may recognise me as one who disbelieves the > HIV Hypothesis : that AIDS is due to HIV, and has urged that > statisticians should be playing a role in campaigning for better > scientific reasoning in this field. > > The recent International Conference on AIDS and HIV took place > in South Africa, at a time when the South African President, > Thabo Mbeki was inviting a number of persons, including noted AIDS > dissidents, to come to Pretoria to advise him with a view to > whether his medical budget was being wisely disposed. In > response, the Conference organisers issued a world-wide e-mailing > of scientists urging them that if they believed that it was right > to accept the HIV Hypothesis then they should send in their names. > A huge number of electronic signatures were collected and led to > the issuance of 'The Durban Declaration' - a statement on behalf > of scientists worldwide that they upheld the HIV Hypothesis. > > Here's the slippery point : > > I am told by a respected source that some or all of > the e-mail messages asking for support included a > statement that it was helpful to sign EVEN IF ONE > DID NOT CONSIDER ONESELF TO BE AN EXPERT IN THE > FIELD OF AIDS / HIV . > > I haven't seen this message, and would like to do so, and > also to try to assess if this was the usual form or a > variant sent to only a few recipients. > > Please, if you received an e-mail message asking you to sign up > for what became the Durban Declaration, or have a friend who > did, then please could you send me a copy? (to me direct, > please, *not* via the allstat list). > > If responding, please bear in mind that I will find the > forwarded copy most useful if it includes the full e-mail headers > showing from where the message originated to reach the person > whose support was being requested. > > Thanks, as it were, from : > > Norman Marsh (about to be overwhelmed?) > [log in to unmask] > > > -- __________________________________________________________________________ | | | Carlton Hogan ([log in to unmask]) | | Community Programs for Clinical Research on AIDS Statistical Center | | Coordinating Center for Biometric Research | | Division of Biostatistics, School of Public Health | | University of Minnesota http://www.biostat.umn.edu/~carlton | | 2221 University Ave SE, Suite 200 Voice: (612) 626 8899 | | Minneapolis MN 55414 FAX: (612) 626 8892 | |________________________________________________________________________| %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%