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Norm, Thanks for your reply. I am delighted by your articulation of these issues and by what I believe is a serious move from semantics to inquiry in your thought. There may be more resources available for your approach than you have perhaps found yet in the literature of other parts of the world. As an example, I wonder if "dreaming" is closely related to the Platonic understanding of "myth." The term "myth" is seriously damaged in contemporary usage, but its original meaning is much more powerful than is usually understood. Myth is a kind of narrative, balanced with Logos or argument as an alternative to insight when the subject is very difficult to understand. Myth is a pathway to insight concerning the relations of things that are otherwise, because of the contingencies of experience, not readily accessible. Today, we often think of myth as "not true." But in the original meaning, myth is often "true" in its significance, if not always in its literal representation. One may even suggest that designs are, in essence, forms of dreamings. And there are a few designers--and some very good ones--who see in design the creation of myths. Have you ever read Kenji Ekuan's "The Aesthetics of the Japanese Lunchbox"? There is a recent translation published by the MIT Press. Myths lead to participation in a way that arguments often do not. And it is cultural participation that is the goal of fourth-order design, I think. You are on to something quite significant, whether or not my interpretation is heading the right way. It appears to me that you have moved through artifact and image design to another kind or another approach to design. It also appears that we may share a similar understanding of 3rd- and 4th-order design--at least, we are asking similar questions about the relation of design and culture. By the way, I feel something of the pain that you must feel in trying to find a language to convey your thoughts on these matters. It comes through your writing. I also feel you creating a new semantic expression of the inquiry you are beginning. We move from old interpretations to new interpretations through inquiry. But when we come back from inquiry, we often need a new semantics to express what we have discovered. Not a small problem. I think our faculty and students would be very interested in seeing your ideas developed and shared. Would you ever consider a visit for more than a brief time to someplace like Carnegie Mellon? --I guess this should be a discussion off-line. In any case, I hope we will meet up again in Perth. Are you planning to attend? Best wishes, Dick %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%