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Glenn, I'm very interested in your question, but I don't have a quick answer. I wonder if you can explore your point a bit more and share the idea. By the way, in the rhetoric community, "rhetoric" is understood in two senses. One is as an art of communication and persuasion. Two is either the study of rhetorical products (speeches and such) or the uses of rhetoric to understand other areas of human experience. This is sometimes known as Rhetorical Studies. These two meanings of 'rhetoric' are quite similar to the problems we have with the term 'design'--as an art and as a locus of design studies. Dick (Richard) %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%