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DISABILITY-RESEARCH  October 1999

DISABILITY-RESEARCH October 1999

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Subject:

Re: What does the Let's-Silence--Singer camp want?

From:

"Tanis M. Doe" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Mon, 4 Oct 1999 09:26:33 -0700 (PDT)

Content-Type:

TEXT/PLAIN

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

TEXT/PLAIN (148 lines)

Hello all,  I want to clarify a few deatils because I mentioned names in
my posting. I did not, nor do I believe Dick and Barb and Gregor to be
AGAINST autonomy ( nor choice). What I meant was that we had had heated
debates about the COST of choice and autonomy. Ill be more careful when I
use other people's names, but I do not want to confuse the issue at hand.
Along with maria, I was one of the women involved with DAWN Canada's
decision making around choice issues ( rights for repreoductive
technology) and ONE ( not the only) reason I said it so SIMPLY was to
respond to Judy Singer s questiosn about what or how disability rights
people deal with a womans  right to choose and I believe she mentioned
something about should it be ONLY non disabled feotae which get aborted (
i assume she was  being sarcastic).  The question of choice is NOT a
simple one but I was responding to that comment. And the fact is DAWN
Canada did have an official position so I was referring her to it. Not
saying that CHOICE ( as if!) actually existed without constraints,  nor
that information was ever unbiased, nor that medicine in Canada or
elsewhere was NOT CLASSIST and discriminatory. Ihope that was not
interpreted by those reading my post.    In addition  I mentioned the
assisted suicide  issue not to raise it as a place that Gregor, Dick and
Barb and I have disagreed essentially but to point out that disability
rights activists  do not go gently into those arguments, we think long and
hard about them and  often lose sleep over them.  So  I want to encourage
the discussion not cut it off but I also dont want to misrepresent other
peoples perspectives,  I do not think Barb waxman is on this list but her
email is [log in to unmask] and she is talking about Singer on another list
serve we are both on so if you want her Opinion, ask her.  Gregor and Dick
I believe are both on this serve.   Thanks for bearing withmy mugginess
(Thats  Victoria BC language for lack of clarity)  Tanis

Tanis is moving in August please stay tuned for new address and phone
number. Visit  http://members.xoom.com/doetanis1/newhome.html for some
links. Pls send attachments to [log in to unmask] not to this email thanks.

On Sun, 3 Oct 1999, Gregor Wolbring wrote:

> 
> Hi Maria,
> I only said that the sentence of Tanis to say DAWN uphelds the principle
> of choice is to simplistic. I didn't say there are not people in DAWN who
> question whether choice is a reality 
> I know that people in DAWN and NAC question whether choice exist.
> Cheers
> Gregor
> 
> 
> On Sun, 3 Oct 1999, Maria Barile wrote:
> 
> > 
> > 
> >   Sorry, Greg
> > need to disagree with you . As I belive that at least untill 1992 I was part of
> > those defining choice within DAWN.  and in reading Y.Peters work you will note
> > some of us  have always questioned what choice meant and  for whom. Far from
> > simplistic DAWN and NAC struggled with the question of choice and all its
> > contradictions.
> > Maria
> > 
> > Gregor Wolbring wrote:
> > 
> > > Ok as Tani drags me into this I think I want to clarify some points
> > >
> > > On Sat, 2 Oct 1999, Tanis M. Doe wrote:
> > >
> > > > In Canada the DisAbled Women's Movement has been consistent in upholding a
> > > > woman's right to choose- to continue or abort a pregnancy. That is not,
> > > > nor should it be related to the killing of babies.
> > >
> > > In Singer's mind the philosophy is everything which is a non person can be
> > > killed. In the moment their is a difference between abortion and
> > > infanticide purely for the reason that as soon as you are born you are
> > > viewed as a person. Now starting from the assumption of Singer who
> > > deserves to be a person indeed the boundary between abortion and
> > > infanticide is falling apart. Also Singer says very clearly being a human
> > > being does not start at birth but after cells can't devide into different
> > > entities anymore. So if you want to uphold the boundary between
> > > infanticide and abortion you have to deal with the arguments of the
> > > personhood debate.
> > > Just as a side comment (as the stuff writen by Tanis might leave the
> > > impression that Dick Barb and I  are not for choice. I apologize if I
> > > misread you Tanis.). I find the comment
> > > that
> > > DAWN is upholding women's right to choose much to simplistic  as choice
> > > doesn't exist in the moment. Choice is the ability to choose between two
> > > equally valid options. Obviously it's not the same whether to have a
> > > disabled child or a non disabled child. I and many women
> > > (e.g. Abby Lippman)question   the notion that choice is solely based on
> > > the person to say yes or no. It is based on the enviroment these women are
> > > sitting in.  I had and still have long debates with
> > >  people that there should not be a difference
> > > between sex selection and disability selection something which was put
> > > forward by the last Canadian Biotech billand by the Royal Commission on
> > > NRT and which might appear again in the new Canadian Biotech Bill and
> > > something which is the law
> > > in Pennsylvania (funny that the Pennsylvania law which is Anti Choice was
> > > not torn down by women groups who are in favour of choice).
> > > This relates also to Judy's comment (Or should anyone who wants to have
> > > an abortion first have to do pre-natal testing so that she can only
> > > abort if the foetus is normal?) THe non disabled are looking for a special
> > > protection status not the disabled.
> > >
> > > > However,  Gregor Dick (sobsey) and Barb (waxman) and I have had heated
> > > > debates about the "cost" of autonomy and independent,  is it worth having
> > > > the right to kill oneself if it means the abuse of that right in the form
> > > > of murdering disabled people or pushing people to want to die.
> > >
> > > Now here are we at the ass. suicide debate. it sounds as if we are
> > > against autonomy... That is not true. What Dick Barbara (I presume) and I
> > > are saying that the right to die in a dignified way debate is not about
> > > autonomy its not about the right to kill oneself in essence it's about
> > > "after birth eugenics".
> > > If
> > > autonomy and independence and self determination would be indeed the
> > > focuss of right to die than you would not just see disabled/people with an
> > > illness targeted to allow THEM an access to a dignified death. Many other
> > > people have no access to a dignified death but they are not part of that
> > > push.
> > >
> > > The below is from Judy
> > > > > > Democracy: you let people speak without muzzling and censorship, give
> > > > > > them the options, engage in the struggle to make sure they're fair, but
> > > > > > let the individual choose.
> > > In order to do so you have also to level the playing field meaning that
> > > both sides have equal options and effectivness to distribute their
> > > thoughts. THat is not the case
> > 
> > 
> 
> Dr. Gregor Wolbring
> Research Scientist at the 
> Dept. of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology
> Faculty of Medicine
> and Adjunct Assistant Professor
> at the Dept. of Community Rehabilitation and Disability Studies
> Faculty of Education
> both University of Calgary
> Phone 1-403-220-5448
> Fax   1-403-283-4740
> eFax  1-603-761-3704
> e-mail [log in to unmask]
> webpage: http://www.thalidomide.ca/gwolbring
> 
> 
> 



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