Dear All,

I need to reply the below message, because I suffer from similar prejudices
and streotypes levelled at Turkish and Kurdish people.

>Mustaffa Pacha Effendim

This is a rather deregatory expression, similar to many other pet names
used for other ethnic minority groups.

>AMAN AMAN

This means, 'yeah yeah sure!' in Turkish. I do not understand what the
writer intended with this. However, I am easily impressed!

>Sorry , but to describe yourself as a "Kurdish and from Turkey" is to my mind
>as to say an Englishman from US. Funny is it not ?

I don't see anything wrong with saying I am an Englishman from the US. I am
missing something. I believe in cultural diversity. It doesn't have to come
with a separate nation state.


Do you have any national
>cultural identity as a Kurd  or are you assimilated in the melting pot
>inherited
>from Byzance to the Ottoman Empire ?

I have my own cultural identity as both Kurdish and also as a member of a
larger international community. I do not think that learning other cultures
is a negative process at all.

Are you proud to not support your people
>coming from the East in the very moment that you tend to the West ? Is that an
>excuse to say that there are two millions of Kurds in Istanbul ?

I do support Kurdish cultural rights in Eastern Turkey. However, the
western interference in this issue, very similar to Kosova case, has
totally destroyed the cultural gains of Kurdish community in the region. I
find it patronising that someone who doesn't understand how it is to be
Kurdish to dictate me how I should behave or who I should support. There is
a danger of supporting blanket statements.

Guney  the
>film
>director was one of them and we all liked  his films but he never was a
>separatist
>and yet he could speak about the oppression of your terrible dictature on the
>peasants and Instanbulians too. But he left this world rather early. I
>should be
>curious to see if he lived now would he support the Nato bombings ?

I am sure like many sensible people, Yilmaz Guney would not support the
Nato bombings. However, in an age of Hollywood-based political thinking, it
is easy to accept Guney's films as the reality of Turkish or Kurdish life.
He portrayed a segment that was significant for him. He did not however,
unlike you, claim that this representation was all there is to know about
Kurds in Turkey.

>Are you so much satisfied with the Democracy offered to you by Madame Chiller
>and Mr. Gilmas ? They all live on american currency. Corruption is not just
>on the
>level of baktshich in Turkey, it's much more.

I suppose you are trying to say Ciller and Yilmaz were corrupt as prime
ministers. There were law cases against them yes. If you have any evidence
to offer I would urge you to approach a Turkish court. I am sure any
evidence would be appreciated. It is sad to speculate on such matters which
we cannot substantiate, solely based on some cultural stereotypes about the
Turkish legal system. I think this is very much like saying 'Midnight
Express' shows that Turks are torturers. There is life beyond Hollywood. I
am not saying everything is perfect with the Turkish legal system. On the
contrary there are problems that democratic organisations both in Turkey
and abroad are trying to address. But there are problems in legislative
system in almost every country. I am not convinced that your statement
takes the Turkish legal system any further forward, let alone understanding
it thoroughly.

A Kurd must be happy only if rich
>and  prosperous in his carpet business  ?( most if not all the bazaar carpet
>sellers
>are Kurds). I think that national identity is much more than assimilation
>under
>financial terms.

This is wrong. There are Kurdish people engaging in carpet business.
However, the carpet production is not a Kurdish-only domain. I don't know
why you choose carpet production anyway. It made me chuckle. I think this
stereotype is from another Hollywood children's production involving flying
carpets. There are many influential Kurdish people both in politics and
other segments of employment. They used to be quite outspoken about their
Kurdishness. However, western intervention in Turkey has not helped a bit,
but rather encouraged to create a collective paranoia that Kurdish identity
constitutes a threat to Turkishness. This is similar to Turkish minority in
Northern Greece. The Greek government, following western campaigns on human
rights violations in the region, has accelerated its assimilation programme
over this Turkish minority.

Anyway, actual Turkey is not the best of the places for
>proclaiming
>cosmopolitan ideas. There is too much fanatism in the air and Turkish prisons
>were full of Kurds a long time before European governments started supporting
>separatist Kurds as you say.

Another set of stereotypes any lay person would throw at you. I tried to
reach facts about Kurdish prisoners in Turkey. I am in correspondence with
one Turkish writer Ismail Besikci, who supported Kurdish separatism and
received a jail sentence for it. It is not surprising that there are laws
protecting the integrity of national boundaries in Turkey. Therefore, like
many countries, Turkey also have legislation to prevent separatism in its
borders. I still communicate with Mr Besikci although we have different
view points. I think western intervention in Turkish politics only
strengthens the polarisation of identities.


>And  the most important : Don't  forget that the first Kurdish separatist
>movement
>financed by CIA was not in Turkey but in Iraq  in the early seventies when
>the leader
>was Mr Barzani and the enemy was the Baath  regime of Iraq ( pro-marxist ).
>Suddently after Barzani Kurds stopped attacking Saddam Hussein but turned
>against
>the Turkish state ?

I do not think that Barzani or anyone else have the power to claim
authority over the whole Kurdish race. What you are missing is the marginal
but armed support these groups have. The numbers of people working in
allinence with these separatist groups is marginal compared to the Kurdish
population overall.

 They must have lost their gratitude to what Mother
>Turkey gave
>to them in 1916 ( History is History ).

It is not clear what you are referring to here. It must be another layer of
selective history writing!

You have not any idea of who
>massacred more
>than a million Armenians and took their lands in Kilikia , Erzerum,
>Diaberkir, Urffa and
>Van golu region to the Iranian border ?

Again this is a debateable issue which is not established as a historical
fact. There are many historical doctrines in Turkey about the massacre of
Turks in Balkans, Creete, Cyprus and Izmir in Turkey. I think I can only
say in this instance that I am sorry if it had happened. What I cannot
understand here is, does your argument about these so-called massacres
justify another one taking place in Europe now?

  Did Kurds loose their collective
>memory ? THAT WAS A GENOCIDE 1000 TIMES MORE IMPORTANT OF WHAT
>IS HAPPENNING IN KOSSOVO. Do you have to tell something about your oriental
>ancestors ' endeavours at the time ?  Some Armenians still remember. They
>also live in
>Istanbul as you but they remember. Maybe they were your classmates. Why
>don't you
>ask them about THEIR genocide ?

What a strange concept: my genocide, their genocide, his or her genocide.
Is genocide the only determinant of cultural heritage. Should I bear
grudges against people who are seeking peace like me, if their race or
ethnicity is different. Yes, I had Armenian class mates and personal
students too. I do not go around insulting people asking them how their
genocide was, like you would not ask the first black person you meet in
Europe how they feel about the slavery system. Doing otherwise would be
hate mongering.

>My conclusion is that assimilation is presented as a smart solution in the
>new century
>of globalisation. It's no more an offence so I hope I will no more be named
>as a racist
>by any smart democratic gentleman of this list  by calling you the final
>product of a perfect
>ethnic assimilation in the lap of MULTINATIONAL Mother Turkey.:

I am proud of having a cultural heritage both from Kurdish and Turkish side
of my family. I don't see it as a disadvantage. However, if you feel that
learning from other cultures is not something you like, that is your
choice. However I also believe that such a parochial attitude towards
ethnicity only indicates and promotes santimonious beliefs about oneself
and one's cultural heritage.

>THE MOTHER OF ALL NATIONS. ( the father ATA being always Kemal ATATURK)
>It does not even matter if Kurds are Indo-europeans and Turks of Mongolian
>stock. Who cares about these unimportant details ?

I think it is a disgrace to call any ethnic group as a stock. Your
classficiation of Turks and Kurds is based on a linguistic division not a
cultural one. You might have not noticed but Turkish people have been in
Europe for over 500 years.


>Small remark : If you look at the touristic guides of National Turkish Bureau,
>Hittites, Lydians, Ionians and Byzantines were all ancestors of Turks . Even
>Homer
>living in the Asian Minor coast was a pro-Turk named Omer and his poems were
>first sung in Turkish oral dialectal language and then transcripted in
>literate Greek.
>Now are you satisfied ? Maybe Homer was a Yuruk Turk. Sorry for calling Homer
>still in Yunanistan ( Greece-Hellas) after his initial HELLENIC name : OMIROS.

I never come across such a tourist guide. It most certainly is subject to
lible if it makes such claims. If I were you, I would write to the
publisher and seek legal action. I am sure it is also a breech of bilateral
cultural agreements between Turkey and Greece. However, I get the
impression somehow that you are wasting my time again with speculations you
heard from Greek media.

>If I was a nationalist I should proclaim Agia Sophia and all the lost lands
>where Greek
>was spoken for 3000 years, but I don't give a damn. I am glad that Greece kept
>its language and religion under Ottoman rule for 400 years otherwise that
>could be
>impossible under Occidental European Rule. We owe our language survival to
>the
>laziness of the Turks authorities,that's right. Also we learned how to cook
>pastrouma
>moussaka, souvlakia, tas kebab and imam baildi, we learned how to bath in
>hamams
>and how to dance carcilama and zeibec and how to appreciate original
>oriental hashich.

What is the reason for this change of tone? Responding with a cultural
stereotype 'beware of Greeks baring gifts'. Well this saying is not
Turkish. I heard it in England. A colleague thought it would amuse me. I
wasn't amused as I don't have a sense of humour. But as you see there is
always temptation to use cultural stereotypes.

>AFFERIM EFFENDIM
>
>AND YET YOU DID NOT INFORM US ABOUT YOUR VIEWS ON
>NATO SMART BOMBS. All you can do so easily is to characterise others as
>racists.
>Is that the only scientific task of professional well-paid sociologists ?
>Thanks a lot.
>Except id sociology is useful to evaporate History and to pronounce noble
>words
>about human rights etc, while some strong Goliaths ruin some small Davids.

I mentioned my views about Nato campaign in several postings. I do not
support bombing of Kosova as it became a pure display of imperialist power.
However, I do not support Serbia's ethnic cleansing policy in the region. I
think there is an urgent need to establish ethical guidelines on
international intervention. Because the current situation constitutes a
breech of international conventions. Although it constitutes a breech, I
believe that Kosovan's should be able to return to their home land and that
the international community needs to support this process.

>Sorry, I forgot to apologise to all respectable members of this EUROPEAN list
>who feel that all this Oriental stuff is out of their OCCIDENTAL RATIONAL
>concerns.

I would advise you to read Edward Said's work 'orientalism'. I think
discussions on occident cannot be examined exclusive of orient and vice
versa. Does any other member of this group think that Europe is a place
only for 'occidental rationality', whatever that is? I hope not. I hope
that Europe will embody a more inclusive definition of rationality than
that of its imperialist past.

Best regards,

Mustafa Ozbilgin

ps. to finish on a positive note: Today I asked my students 'should we,
when in Rome, do as Romans do'. I was amazed to find that one third of them
understood this question in its literal terms, preparing tutorial material
on how one should behave when going to Rome. Was there a Hollywood movie on
this recently?

___________________________________________
Dr. Mustafa F. Özbilgin
Lecturer in Human Resource Management 	Insan kaynaklari yonetimi
University of Hertfordshire		Hertfordshire Universitesi
Business School 			Isletme Okulu
Hertford Campus				Ingiltere
SG13 8QF
Hertfordshire
England

tel: 00 44 1707 285446
fax: 00 44 1707 285455
tel: 00 44 1992 627915 home (fax switch)
e-mail: [log in to unmask]
___________________________________________




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