Date: Wed, 24 Feb 99 00:51:30 CET
From: patsilarasvasilis
To: h7711var; URBANET
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: Bosnia, Kossovo and Kurdistan Gabor's
Question
Turks flourish in Germany, Netherlands, etc. enjoying much greater freedom
than in their own homeland. This the main reason why they do not return back
home. In any case they enjoy much greater freedom than any ethnic group ever
enjoyed in Turkey. Turkey has been the champion of genocides this century
(much worst than Hitler's Germany) starting with Armenians (in the 1910s),
followed by Jews, Greeks and other ethnic minorities (in the 1920s) during
Kemal's ethnic cleansing efforts. Greeks followed again (Istambul, 1955 and
in the 1960s) and for the last decade or so the Kurds are exterminated. For
example, between the early 1950s and today, the number of Greeks living in
Istanbul went down from over 200,000 thriving people to 2,000 - 3,000 scared
and aging souls.
So, whoever you are, do not talk about human rights and humane treatment of
minorities in Europe. As you said look at your own garden.
Vasilis Patsilaras
>It is interesting to observe that Judeo-Christian White Europeans continue
>their historical hypocritical attitude towards other countries and their
>human rights concerns. I was wondering how many of you are concerned with
>the way in which the borders of the European Union is constructed on racial
>grounds. It is also worrying that when a Judeo-Christian White European
>refers to ethnic diversity, they mean everyone living like christians do. I
>do not see any European country treating its minorities better than the
>rest of the world.
>
>How about the Turks in Germany, the Netherlands, and rest of Europe? Even
>the second generation is hardly welcome.
>
>How about Turkish minorities in Greece, Bulgaria, and rest of the Balkans?
>How well are they treated? They are not even recognised as Turkish
>minorities. The national discourse in these countries are proud of their
>religious and cultural heterogeneity. I don't think they can teach anything
>to the rest of the world in terms of cultural diversity!
>
>If you are looking for dirt to dig, please start from your own gardens.
>
>Best regards,
>
>Mustafa Ozbilgin
>
>
>
>
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>>
>>
>>I do not disagree with much of what Vasilis Patsilaras has to say about
the
>>mistreatment of the Kurds by the Turkish regime, (although I might quarrel
>>with
>>the use of the term Fascist which I think has a more precise meaning than
he
>>does or the comparison with the Moscow trials). However his account of the
>>Bosnians or Kossovans cannot be allowed to stand. Slobodan Milosevic
>>fanned the
>>flames of Serbian nationalism in ending Kossovan autonomy and suppressing
>>educational and other rights for the Albanian speaking majority (remember
>>that
>>the population of kossovo is 90% Albanian). As far as Bosnia is concerned
I
>>think that Bosnia stood at first precisely for the possibility of a state
>>where
>>different ethnic and religious groups could co-exist. It was Croatian and
>>Serbian nationalists who created a situation where the Bosnian government
>>became
>>increasingly a Muslim one rather than a multi-ethnic one. Serbs were not a
>>majority in Bosnia and whilst one might have wished that a multi-ethnic
>>Yugoslavia was a possibility, a greater Serbia dominated by nationalism is
a
>>very different entity.
>>
>>Howard Wollman
>>______________________________ Reply Separator
>>_________________________________
>>Subject: Fwd: Re: Bosnia, Kossovo and Kurdistan Gabor's Question
>>Author: Varnai Gabor <[log in to unmask]> at Internet-Gateway
>>Date: 22/02/99 10:27
>>
>>
>>Friends,
>>Maybe this will become a wider conversation, as it seems from
>>messages coming from URBANET list.
>>
>>If you want to join that list, send a message to
>>
>>[log in to unmask]
>>
>>with a message in the body:
>>
>>SUBSCRIBE URBANET <full_name>
>>
>>Sincerely: Gabor Varnai
>>
>>Date: Sun, 21 Feb 99 10:24:20 CET
>>From: patsilarasvasilis
>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>Subject: Re: Bosnia, Kossovo and Kurdistan Gabor's Question
>>
>>I think this is a very naive approach to intra-country conflicts,
>>because it does not take into consideration the role of outside
intervention
>>and interference. Yogoslavia, with all its shortcomings and lack of
>>democracy, had achieved a remarkable level of cohesiveness among its
various
>>racial and religious groups, up until the great powers decided to break
the
>>country up, by arming, instigating and siding opensly with a minority
group,
>>the Muslim Bosnians. The same disastrous prescription is now repeated in
>>Kossovo. In reality it has very little to do with the people's perception
of
>>power structure, but rather it is a clear cut reaction to outside bland
>>manipulation of local sentiments and politics.
>>
>>The argument becomes clear when the case of Bosnia (and Kossovo) is
compared
>>to the case of Kurdistan. In the case of Yogoslavia, the Muslims are
>>instigated and armed to the boot (by whom?) to revolt against Serbs,
>>allegedly in order to protect their rights and national (!!) identity. The
>>rights of these precious minorities have to reign suprime in our
consiense,
>>thus the big propaganda about human (read Muslim Bosnian) rights. In the
case
>>of Kurdistan, on the other hand, which is an ancient (Muslim too) nation
with
>>a far more dinstictive identity than the Muslims in Bosnia or Kossovo, no
>>rights are recognised and even their national identity is not even
>>acknowledged. Twenty five million people fighting against anihilion by the
>>Turkish rulling bladdy military regime are called terrorist (Muslim
Bosnian
>>and Kossovans are not terrorists?) and they are refused the mere right of
>>existance, so eagerly recognised to Bosnians and Kossovans.
>>
>>In the last 10 years or so, 4,000 Kurd villages have been erased from the
>>surface of the earth and millions of people have been killed, while
tousands
>>are being imprisoned and torured in an holocaust every bit as bad as
>>Hitler's percecussion of Jews and other minorities. Turkey's military
regime
>>is the only fascist regime in power in the world today. A few days ago the
>>leader of Kurds was illegally abdacted by the Turks in Kenya and as we
speak
>>he is being tortured and subjected to humiliation, much worse than the one
>>suffered by Stalin's opponents in the infamous Moscow trials. None of this
>>becomes headlines, however. It behoves all those who try to control our
>>lifes to keep silent about the real causes of all these troubles and just
>>talk some theoritical "bull" about people's faith in representative or
>>authoretarian regimes. This analysis may be suitable to western countries,
>>but have no application whatsoever to Yugoslavia, Kossovo, Kurdistan and
>>other troubled places around the world, where human life is cheap.
>>
>>Vasilis Patsilaras
>>
>>>>Gabor,
>>>>
>>>>You don't just ask the easy questions, do you?
>>>>
>>>>I have been discussing something very similar with a group of my friends
>>>>scattered around the world. I think it is the Politics of Desperation.
>>As
>>>>people's faith in representative or even authoritarian forms of
government
>>>>wane, they need to replace it with other institutions. These
institutions
>>>>need to be _obvious_ in both their form and execution. So you end up
>>>>Bosnians and Serbs, who once lived together peacefully, fighting each
>>other
>>>>for land and lineage that none of them are old enough to remember.
>>>>
>>>>When under authoritarian rule, they had both other things to worry about
>>>>_and_ no hope of being able to divide land. In addition, they had faith
>>in
>>>>their government. This doesn't mean that they _liked_ their
government --
>>>>but they had faith that it was stable and that it could, for better or
>>>>worse, act.
>>>>
>>>>Once that comes into question, any number of political scenarios can
>>>>begin -- depending on who builds the first demonstratable movement or
>>power
>>>>structure. Being able to divide up ethnically, racially, or by religion
>>is
>>>>the easiest to see, easiest to defend, and easiest in terms of being
able
>>>to
>>>>identify the problem (the other race, creed, etc.).
>>>>
>>>>These groups are usually focused on one leader -- but everyone feels
like
>>>>they are part of the movement because they are actually participating in
>>>it.
>>>>They feel great ownership in it. Whereas before, in their
representative
>>>>democracy or authoritarian regime, they felt virtualy no ownership due
to
>>>>their incredible level of removal from any vestiges of power.
>>>>
>>>>Then people start fighting. And when people die, the survivors feel
more
>>>>need to achieve their goals and more personal ownership in the cause.
>>They
>>>>pay a very high price for this ownership and do not easily let it go.
>>>>
>>>>This is, for what it is worth, my quick version of what you asked.
>>>>
>>>>Jim
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Urban and Regional Planners Network
>>>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Varnai Gabor
>>>>> Sent: Friday, February 19, 1999 12:24 AM
>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>> Subject: question to all
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Friends,
>>>>> Here is a little opinion poll:
>>>>> I'm observing a phenomenon in Hungary that is:
>>>>> In critical social situations - what Hungary is in -
>>>>> people do not claim organisational forms of
>>>>> democracy more, while they claim to a great extent
>>>>> direct, participative forms of it.
>>>>> Did anybody observe phenomena like this one?
>>>>> Sincerely: Gabor Varnai
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- signature block follows -----
>>>>>
>>>>> Gabor VARNAI
>>>>> PARDES Urban Policy Research and Consulting Office;
>>>>> Institute of Sociology, Hungarian Academy of Sciences
>>>>> Felsoerdosor 12.
>>>>> Budapest, Hungary
>>>>> H-1068
>>>>> tel/fax: +36-1-3515465
>>>>> e-mail: [log in to unmask]
>>>>> if your answer undelivered: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>
>>
>>
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>>Subject: Fwd: Re: Bosnia, Kossovo and Kurdistan Gabor's Question
>>From: Varnai Gabor <[log in to unmask]>
>>To: ESA <[log in to unmask]>
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----- signature block follows -----
Gabor VARNAI
PARDES Urban Policy Research and Consulting Office;
Institute of Sociology, Hungarian Academy of Sciences
Felsoerdosor 12.
Budapest, Hungary
H-1068
tel/fax: +36-1-3515465
e-mail: [log in to unmask]
if your answer undelivered: [log in to unmask]
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