---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 00:02:07 -0500
From: Automatic digest processor <[log in to unmask]>
Reply-To: VICTORIA 19th-Century British Culture & Society
<[log in to unmask]>
To: Recipients of VICTORIA digests <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: VICTORIA Digest - 27 Feb 1999 to 28 Feb 1999
There are 26 messages totalling 781 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. pronunciations
2. environmental issues (4)
3. Wilde's Salome (3)
4. Weeping students (2)
5. Crying over _In Memoriam_
6. Pro-nun-see-a-shun
7. Environmental Issues
8. Tramping
9. Censorship on the London Stage
10. George Sinclair, art dealer? (fwd)
11. CFP for MLA
12. Intebation (4)
13. Intubation
14. Trials and errors
15. Rosetta Stone (2)
16. Call for Papers on William Morris
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 10:56:29 +0100
From: Richard Dury <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: pronunciations
On questions of proper name pronunciations, may I recommend John Wells's
*Longman Pronunciation Dictionary* (1990).
I can't agree with Helen Hanff via Greg Grainger that the old pron. of
*Thames* began with a fricative rather than a plosive. *th* was merely a
Middle English spelling variant for the sound /t/ which can be found in
*Anthony* (BrE pron.), *Thomas*, *thyme*.
Richard Dury
Univ. Brescia
[log in to unmask]
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 11:09:58 +0100
From: Jan Marten Ivo Klaver <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: environmental issues
All right, I probably equated "environmental issues" too hastily with
"ecological awareness". Having said that, I still maintain that Dickens's
description of Coketown is rather limited as "environmental" protest; in an
anthropocentric way, it merely works to set off Gradgrind and Bounderty's
utilitarian fact to the imaginative circus world. (see, for example,
*when* Coketown is presented in the book). As such Dickens's description of
Coketown is social protest rather than ecological awareness, very much in
the way Disraeli describes the Wodgate scenes in *Sybil*. Ugliness,
"melancholy madness" and, above all, monotony are the key-notes here, and
that is the element Dickens uses to enforce the main theme of his novel. I
do not think we should read these passages from a too modern ecological
point of view.
Ruskin's approach to environment is very different. He makes this very
clear in *Modern Painters* (III.11) when he maintains that up to then man
was little interested in the "external world, except as it influenced his
own destiny" but further remained "utterly incapable of feeling any special
happiness in the love of such things, or any earnest emotion about them,
considered as separate from man" (Wordsworth excluded, I suppose).
Jan Marten Ivo klaver
[log in to unmask]
At 21.37 27/02/1999 -0600, you wrote:
>Oh come now. Dickens description of Coketown early on in HARD TIMES is as
>vivid a statement of environmental aware and protest and one is likely to
>find in any post-industrial book.
> TCK
>
>----------
>> From: Jan Marten Ivo Klaver <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: environmental issues
>> Date: Saturday, February 27, 1999 2:43 PM
>>
>> I wonder to what extent we can speak of "environmental issues" in *Hard
>> Times*, or, for that matter, in most other Victorian novels. The only
>truly
>> Victorian awareness in an "ecological" sense that comes to mind is
>Ruskin's.
>>
>> Jan Marten Ivo Klaver
>> [log in to unmask]
>>
>>
>> At 10.52 27/02/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>> >I wonder if anyone can help me identify novels or short fiction that
>have
>> >as a major (either causal of action or one among an array of important
>> >topics) component environmental issues. The only ones that spring to
>mind
>> >are books like _Hard Times_ and I am sure there are others I have not
>> >thought of. I am trying to get a preliminary reading list of fiction
>> >together for a freshman level class.
>> >
>> >Thanks,
>> >
>> >Susan Bernardo
>> >[log in to unmask]
>> >[log in to unmask]
>> >
>
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 12:37:51 -0000
From: Lesley Hall <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Wilde's Salome
>I re-read the introduction written by Vyvyan Holland (Wilde's son) in my
>complete works, and he said that Lord Chamberlain would not grant a
>license for _Salome_ to be performed, on the grounds that no play
>containing biblical characters was allowed to be performed on an English
>stage. Have you heard of that strange rule before?
This was indeed the case. The power of the Lord Chamberlain to pre-censor
plays for public performance (rather than restricted club performances,
which was a way round the ruling) lasted from some time in the C18th (when
it was introduced largely to prevent the production of politically seditious
works) to the 1960s. There was a lot of complaint from the late C19th that
the LC's office was refusing licenses to serious plays on social issues
(e.g. marriage, divorce, prostitution, inherited syphilis) while finding no
problems with frivolous and farcical treatments of subjects to do with sex.
I know less about the censorship on religious subjects - only that it
existed - Laurence Housman fell foul of this for writing a play about the
Nativity. I am not sure what the implications would have been for anyone who
wanted to revive the medieval Mystery plays! (the very existense of which
suggests that this 'tradition' of not representing biblical characters was
of rather recent origin).
Lesley Hall
[log in to unmask]
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 09:04:15 -0500
From: Herbert Tucker <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: environmental issues
> Ruskin's approach to environment is very different. He makes this very
> clear in *Modern Painters* (III.11) when he maintains that up to then man
> was little interested in the "external world, except as it influenced his
> own destiny" but further remained "utterly incapable of feeling any special
> happiness in the love of such things, or any earnest emotion about them,
> considered as separate from man" (Wordsworth excluded, I suppose).
Jan Marten Ivo klaver
That's a highly expandable parenthesis there at the end. If William is
intended, the notebooks of Dorothy deserve to be read into it. And a fair
amount of poetry besides: locodescriptive verse back through Cowper, maybe
to Thomson and A. Finch. I suspect that an ecocritical appropriation of
at least certain aspects of R. Williams' argument in *The City and the
Country* would be productive. Crabbe? Clare? Is Keats' "To Autumn" the
expression of an "ecological" imagination? If not, why not?
Jonathan Bate's work
recently has been enlightening on this general topic, in itself and as a
reminder that ecocriticism ought not to be confined to American nature writing.
There will be a special issue of *New Literary History* this year devoted
to Ecocriticism, with essays by Bate and others.
Herbert Tucker
[log in to unmask]
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 09:39:35 -0500
From: Chris Willis <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Weeping students
Hi!
I once got a group of students to discuss Dickens' formula of "Make them
laugh, make them cry, make them wait" in relation to "David Copperfield".
I asked them if the book had made any of them laugh or cry. No-one would
admit to crying over it, but once of them did tell me that the humourous
parts had made her laugh out loud on public transport, to the considerable
surprise of her fellow-passengers!
I'm pleasantly surprised that people still cry over Victorian novels.
Quite a lot of students seem to be (perhaps understandably) cynical about
long-drawn-out death scenes which were real tear-jerkers in their time.
I'm reminded of Oscar Wilde's comment that only someone with a heart of
stone could read the death of little Nell without laughing.
All the best
Chris
----------------------------------------------
Chris Wilis
English Department
Birkbeck College
Malet Street
London WC1E 7HX
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 15:59:27 +0100
From: Corinna Lütsch <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: environmental issues
Susan,
Charles Kingsley's THE WATERBABIES has environmental issues as one major
topic.
Cheers,
Corinna
--
_________________________________________________________________
Corinna Luetsch Email: [log in to unmask]
Grabenstrasse 33 Tel: +49 <0> 228 - 472 473
53225 Bonn Tel: +49 (0) 228 - 42 20 91 6
Germany Fax: +49 (0) 228 - 55 99 1 44
________________________________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 10:03:48 -0500
From: Ellen Moody <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Crying over _In Memoriam_
I have only seen a student cry in class once, and it was
not over a Victorian work but one published in 1988 in
which a man tells of the death of his young wife. The
student was a young woman whose husband had
recently died of cancer. However, I have been told by
students that they cried, felt tears coming to their eyes or
a catch in the throat over some Victorian work. In this
connection _In Memoriam_ leaps to mind. The young woman
I mentioned and several others over the years have
found Tennyson's poems vivid with a human life they
share. Most -- or maybe all -- of this crying comes from
students who have had someone they loved very much
die on them when that individual was young. I use
"on them" deliberately; it comes from students who feel
the person was taken from them and him or herself cut off.
Tennyson speaks to them in terms they respond to.
Several is a lot of people.
The tears in the eyes and catch in the throat stories come
in my case from students who have read a couple of Trollope's
tragic or poignant stories. "Le M=E9re Bauche" is a shocker;
a girl is driven, driven, driven, to marry someone she loathes,
and just before she is to be put to bed with him, she jumps
off a cliff. Trollope gives the reader a sense of the last
movement (like Desdemona I suppose) as the body lays
there in its agony. One girl told me looking a bit embarrassed
but communicating her sense of real sorrow that she was
so touched at the desolating ending of the quieter story,
"The Parson's Daughter of Oxney Colne."
I think most of these stories come from girls or young women
Not that boys are immune to emotion. Maybe they are not
inclined to tell about it when they don't have to. I have seen
boys or young men get upset in class when I have shown a
hard realistic documentary film by Frederick Wiseman
called _Near Death_ wherein we are taken to an ICC and
watch the staff cope with death, dying, their machinery
which prolongs life and dying, and the various relatives of
the very ill people who mostly don't know how to cope.
One young man suddenly got up from his chair and left
the room, clearly unable to stay when another student
began to laugh at an old man to whom a nurse was
explaining what the process of intebation means. The
student who laughed probably seemed crude to the
student who couldn't sit there, though it could also have
been a nervous response.
Students can also be led to respond powerfully to
ghost stories -- by which I mean when you read
them aloud in the way intended. The uncanny
as understood by Victorians is our uncanny.
Death and dying and deep personal private loss
and fear and trepidation of some unknown "out there."
We may be less good at these things than the
Victorians were (partly because it's not acceptable
to admit to them today -- at least in some
circles), but Victorian works at least approach the
experience in terms we understand. They have our
doubts. I have always had a visceral response to the poem Keats wrote
where he talks about his living hand stretched out towards
us. I get a sense of flesh that is not there any longer
and its deep hurt at being gone. I wouldn't have wanted
to read it after my father died.
Ellen Moody
[log in to unmask]
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 10:30:03 -0500
From: Hugh Mac Dougall <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Pro-nun-see-a-shun
And:
New Berlin, N.Y. (NYOO BERL-in); Calais, ME (CAL-us); Houston (HYOO-ston
in Texas; HOW-ston in New York City), and Uncle Tom Cobleigh (pronounced
CULL-y, CUBB-y ???) and all. (Footnote: last item from the English Folksong
"Widdicombe Fair," and I won't even guess how that is pronounced!)
James Fenimore Cooper was fond of names that were not pronounced as
spelled. When he introduces his hero in the novel "The Crater" (1848) he
says: "The Woolstons...were a plain family.... Knowing perfectly how to
spell, they never dreamed any one would suspect them of ignorance. They
called themselves as their forefathers were called, that is to say,
Wooster, or just as Worcester is pronounced; though a Yankee schoolmaster
tried for a whole summer to persuade our hero...that he ought to be styled
Wool-ston."
Not surprisingly, Cooper had little use for the efforts of Noah Webster
either to reform spelling or to encouraged "as spelled" pronunciation.
Hugh C. MacDougall
Secretary/Treasurer
James Fenimore Cooper Society
8 Lake Street, Cooperstown, NY 13326-1016
<[log in to unmask]>
<http://library.cmsu.edu/cooper/cooper.htm>
----------
> From: Patricia_Marks <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Pro-nun-see-a-shun
> Date: Saturday, February 27, 1999 7:25 PM
>
> And Vienna, GA (that's VY-ENNA), to say nothing of Cairo, GA
(KAY-ROW)--or
> so I'm told.
> >From Patricia, a displaced New Yorker.
> -----
> Patricia Marks
> Department of English
> Valdosta State University
> Valdosta, GA 31698
>
> On Fri, 26 Feb 1999, Bill Morgan wrote:
>
> > And San Jose, IL: [SANN JOE'S].
> >
> > Bill Morgan
> >
> > At 12:22 PM 2/26/99 -0800, you wrote:
> > >Don't forget my home town's favorite: Goethe Street.
> > >
> > >GO-EE-THEE Street. SHA-CAA-GO, by the bye.
> > >
> > >Jack Kolb
> > >Dept. of English, UCLA
> > >[log in to unmask]
> > >
> >
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 10:38:01 -0500
From: The Hansens <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Environmental Issues
_North and South_ has many scenes which describe the thick industrial smog
around Manchester. On their way North the Hales note that 'For several
miles before they reached Milton, they saw a deep lead-coloured cloud
hanging over
the horizon in the direction in which it lay.' And later, in Manchester,
Margaret's father remarks, 'Margaret, I do believe this is an unhealthy
place. Only suppose that your mother's health or yours should suffer. I
wish I had gone into some country place in Wales; this is really terrible,'
said he,
going up to the window.'
Bart Hansen
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 16:10:15 +0000
From: Kirstie Blair <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Tramping
A small example: in *East Lynne* Richard Hare disguises himself as a
tramp and lurks around
the garden in order to be able to speak to his sister without fear of
arrest.
Kirstie
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 16:20:30 -0000
From: "Newey, Kate" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Censorship on the London Stage
For a good survey of the actions and policies of the Examiner of Plays in the
Lord Chamberlain's Office, try: The censorship of English drama 1824-1901 by
John Russell Stephens (Cambridge : Cambridge U.P., 1980).
Kate Newey
Theatre Studies, Lancaster University
[log in to unmask]
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 13:25:11 -0500
From: Patrick Leary <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: George Sinclair, art dealer? (fwd)
[ Back to art dealers again, I'm posting the following query for Niamh
O'Sullivan ([log in to unmask]) in case someone on VICTORIA may be able to
help with information about George Sinclair. I'll forward along any
on-list replies.]
---------- Forwarded message ----------
I am a lecturer at the National College of Art and Design in Dublin and
am curating an exhibition of an Irish-American painter and illustrator for
the Hugh Lane Gallery of Modern Art later this year. Aloysius O'Kelly
(born 1853) was connected to the art dealer and stone mason George
Sinclair who had what would seem like an extensive business on King
Street/ Shaftsbury Avenue in London in the 1880s and early 1890s. I am
interested in discovering more about Sinclair.
Niamh O'Sullivan e.mail: [log in to unmask]
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 11:36:34 -0800
From: catherine carnell watt <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: CFP for MLA
Abstracts, inquiries requested for a proposed Special Session for MLA on
the subject of Middle-Class Intervention in the Lives of Poor
Families/Children. Intervention can be interpreted broadly, to
include Home Visitors, Tract and Bible Women, orphanages, protective
custody, adoption, reformatories, surveillance....
By March 19th, please.
Kate Carnell Watt
Department of English
University of California, Riverside
Riverside CA 91521
[log in to unmask]
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 09:25:01 +1000
From: Ellen Jordan <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: environmental issues
> I wonder if anyone can help me identify novels or short fiction that have
> as a major (either causal of action or one among an array of important
> topics) component environmental issues.
If you are prepared to include "sanitary" issues in the
"environmental", two Charlotte Yonge novels have plots that turn on
the public debates and legislation on this issue arising out of the
work of Chadwick and Southwood Smith: _The Young Stepmother_ (1861)
and _The Three Brides_ (1876).
On the more general discussion this question has generated, one
cannot help remembering the long-term impact of "nature lovers" in
the Wordsworth/ Thoreau tradition on the environment. The "garden
suburbs" they created have set the pattern for an urban intrusion on
the environment a good deal more extensive than would have been the
case if the fashion for terraces and city squares had been
maintained.
Ellen Jordan
University of Newcastle
AUSTRALIA
[log in to unmask]
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 17:34:21 -0400
From: Kevin Hickey <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Intebation
What is intebation?
Thanks
Kevin Hickey
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 17:49:29 -0500
From: Gregory {Greg} Downing <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Intebation
At 05:34 PM 2/28/99 -0400, Kevin Hickey wrote:
>What is intebation?
>
Are you 100% sure of the spelling? It's not in OED2, even as a variant form.
What's the context where you encountered the word?
Greg Downing/NYU, at [log in to unmask] or [log in to unmask]
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 17:50:38 -0500
From: David Klappholz <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Intebation
Are you sure you don't mean "intubation?"
Dave
>What is intebation?
>
>Thanks
>
>Kevin Hickey
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 18:18:55 -0400
From: Kevin Hickey <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Intebation
Are you sure you don't mean "intubation?"
Dave
I encountered this word on the recent Victoria post re. crying over Tennyson,
and it seems that intubation was misspelled as intebation.
Thanks for the help.
>What is intebation?
>
>Thanks
>
>Kevin Hickey
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 18:35:50 -0500
From: Ellen Moody <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Intubation
I apologise for my typing error. To intubate means to insert a tube into.
In _Near Death_ by Frederick Wiseman we see a few elderly people and one
younger man who cannot breathe on their own and who are intubated. It
appears to be a painful procedure and the presence of the tube in the
person's larynx is only tolerated by giving them large dollops of pain
medication. In the scene which made some students laugh we see a nurse
explain to a man who is over 85 that the staff might choose to intubate
someone to help their lungs or heart (it's not clear which) get better;
however, the elderly man's lungs or heart is so bad, intubation cannot
help him. So he will be causing himself pain to no purpose in the sense
that intubation will not help prolong his life. The students laughed
(actually more than one student laughed) at the old man's way of responding
to this information by talking about his grandchild and appearing not to
understand until he was asked a direct question. Then it was clear he had
understood. I'm afraid they may have laughed in the same spirit I am told
some people watching a commercial no longer on TV were said to laugh wherein
you saw an old woman fall down and speak in strident frightened tones
about how she couldn't get up.
I am no medical expert. It is a remarkable scene because it shows
us the limits of technology or modern scientific medicine graphically
in its human dimension.
I guess we can connect this up to the Victorian age by saying that
until its very end they were spared such pitiless information. (Pitiless
in the sense of the content of what the nurse had to
say not in the sense of her motive which was rational compassion.)
They were also spared the temptation of such a choice.
Ellen Moody
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 18:39:22 -0500
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Weeping students
This takes me back to the first time I read Far from the Madding Crowd,
in my freshman English class. I literally jumped out of my skin when
Gabriel Oak's dog chased his sheep over the cliff, and couldn't bring
myself to pick up the book again for ages, because I just knew something
bad would happen to that poor, silly, frisky dog.
I had a similar reaction to Jude the Obscure, when Little Father Time
came on the scene.
Elizabeth Hale
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 20:08:49 -0500
From: James Alexander <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Wilde's Salome
Most surpringly, Ellmann doesn't name or elaborate on the law that
Pigott (Now *there's* a name!) invoked in order to have Salome banned
from the stage. I've always been under the (unresearched) impression
that the law dated from sometime in the Interregnum when the Puritans
closed the theatres.
If anyone knows anything concrete about the law, I'd very much
appreciate the information.
Thanks,
~James Alexander
Boston University
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 20:38:09 -0500
From: James Alexander <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Trials and errors
I've just had a look at a bibliographical description of 'Oscar Wilde:
Three Times Tried', and the following was included:
Only official report of these trials is to be found in v. 121 and 122 of
the Criminal court sessions papers, Apr.-June 1895, in which all
evidence is omitted.
Does anyone have reasonable access to these volumes or know a good place
to start searching for them?
Thanks
~James Alexander
Boston University
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 17:31:56 -0800
From: Ryan Johnson <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Rosetta Stone
I have a thumbnail sketch's sense of what the Rosetta Stone is (that is,
was), how it came into British hands, and what archeological importance it
served fairly late in the Victorian period for the decoding of Egyptian
hieroglyphics. I'd like to draw on the large and fertile mind that this
list represnts in fleshing out this sketch a bit, especially if any of you
particular contributors to that mind know of moments--literary,
biblographical, anecdotal, what have you--when the Stone seems to figure in
larger discussions, in books or other instruments of culture. To be more
clear: what did Victorians think about the Rosetta Stone, and why? Also,
please feel free to point me toward sources you think would be especially
useful in researching this artifact and its place in the popular
imagination, and feel free to suggest similar artifacts--like the Elgin
Marbles--that might be worth considering alongside the Stone. You might
share your suggestions with the list if you think they're of broad
interest, otherwise private replies might be best.
Thanks in advance,
Ryan
Ryan Johnson
General Editor
Stanford Humanities Review
Mariposa House
Stanford, CA 94305
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Department of English [log in to unmask]
Stanford University (415)626-5885 home
Stanford, CA 94305
That for which we find words is something already dead in our hearts.
There is always a kind of contempt in the act of speaking. -Nietzsche
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 20:40:19 EST
From: Phoebe Wray <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Wilde's Salome
In a message dated 3/1/99 12:41:23 AM, James Alexander wrote:
<<I've always been under the (unresearched) impression
that the law dated from sometime in the Interregnum when the Puritans
closed the theatres.>>
May go back even further in practice. Elizabeth I did not want religion
discussed in plays. Probably was not a "law" -- just her wisdom of the time.
Best
phoebe
Phoebe Wray
The Boston Conservatory
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 20:28:08 -0800
From: dlatham <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Call for Papers on William Morris
MORRIS 2000 CONFERENCE--University of Toronto, 22-25 June 2000
Following the centenary conference at Oxford in 1996, the William
Morris Society is sponsoring the second quadrennial international
conference to bring together scholars and students of Morris as an artist,
writer, and socialist. The conference is taking place 22-25 June 2000, at
the University of Toronto, with accommodation at its downtown campus in
the centre of the city.
Proposals for 20-25 minute papers on all aspects of Morris are
welcomed. Proposals of 300-500 words and enquiries for further information
should be mailed to David and Sheila Latham at 42 Belmont Street, Toronto,
Ontario M5R 1P8, or e-mailed to < [log in to unmask] >. The closing date
for the submission of proposals is 30 September 1999.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 13:17:48 +1030
From: Bruce Rosen <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Rosetta Stone
An excellent site, providing considerable detail about the Rosetta Stone may
be found at:
http://www.cimmerii.demon.co.uk/therosettastone/
Although the stone was found in 1799, it was first used to work out the
hieroglyphs by Jean-Francois Champollion in 1821.
Cheers
Bruce Rosen
========================================
Bruce Rosen
PO Box 256
Magill South Australia 5072
E-mail: [log in to unmask]
------------------------------
End of VICTORIA Digest - 27 Feb 1999 to 28 Feb 1999
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