An unprecedentedly tactful reply. I don't know whether I would spare the
lurkers, but I would certainly replace "secondmost" with "foremost."
Norm Cohen
-----Original Message-----
From: Ed Cray <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Wednesday, September 22, 1999 8:12 AM
Subject: RE: Moral balladry
>Folks:
>
>As the world's secondmost leading expert on bawdy ballads/folksongs (that
>gives someone else room to claim the top spot), let me note briefly that
>folk bawdry is rarely, rarely double entendre, or even subtle. It may not
>use dirty words (viz. "Four Old Whores") but it is straightforward. That
>is its singular redeeming grace: a toss is a screw is a f___.
>
>Ed
>
>P.S. The emendation is in deference to the easily offended who might be
>lurking.
>
>On Wed, 22 Sep 1999, DS LR Surv Lt Col C M St G Kirke wrote:
>
>> I wish I could agree, as I like to see the clean and straightforward side
to
>> things. However, I believe that one must accept that, language being
what
>> it is, words that CAN have double meanings will be taken as such - not
>> necessarily openly and up front, but certainly the possiblity of the less
>> salubrious meaning will come to the hearers (if their culture has
equipped
>> them to identify it) even if thereafter they reject it as irrelevant.
>>
>> And, to repeat quite unnecessarily - it is a well trodden social
>> anthropological principle that ambiguity is powerful.
>>
>> Charles.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: steve roud [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>> Sent: 22 September 1999 03:21
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Moral balladry
>>
>>
>> Is this stuff about Barbara Allen a joke?
>> It is so easy to jump to silly conclusions on the basis of imagined
internal
>> meanings, but the temptation should be resisted. The use of the word
>> 'Scarlet' is no proof (or even any hint) of sexual looseness.
>> 'Scarlet Town' was a slang term for Reading (pronounced 'Redding'), in
which
>> Barbara was born in many versions, and it is given as that in numerous
>> British slang dictionaries.
>> Even if is wasn't 'Scarlet' was also used in numerous other slang phrases
>> with no sexual meaning, so why should this one have that meaning? There
is
>> nothing else in the song which hints at it - or is dying of a
broken-heart
>> not allowed in a love song? If we are desperate to find hidden meanings
in
>> all songs, or to find more street-walker songs, or whatever our current
>> obsession is, it is extremely easy to make statements which cannot be
>> disproved, but which have no substance.
>> Try this one: There is a 19th century song called 'Cock up your Beaver',
As
>> we know that 'cock' is slang for a penis, and 'beaver' is slang (at least
in
>> some circles) for female pubic hair; this song is clearly an extremely
dirty
>> song. The fact that a 'beaver' was a type of hat, which could be 'cocked'
>> doesn't matter, there must be a hidden meaning to it. The spurious
>> explanations for nursery rhymes which are so popular in Britain, and I
>> presume in the US (such as the Ring-a-Roses/Plague story) are built on
>> similar assertion-without-foundation techniques.
>> Try not to read your modern preoccupations into the past.
>> Steve Roud
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: J L Speranza <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
>> Date: 20 September 1999 18:54
>> Subject: Moral balladry
>>
>>
>> >Re Molly Malone, B Olson writes: "There's a tradition in Dublin that the
>> >Molly Malone of the [ballad] was a prostitute, and the bronze statue of
her
>> >is generally known as the 'tart with the cart' to match the 'floozie in
the
>> >jacuzzi', the statue-cum-fountain of Anna Livia in O'Connell Street".
>> >
>> >The lyrics are not fresh in my mind, but is there a connotation that Ms
>> >Malone was a 'lady of the street', if that's the word? In which case, it
>> >would certainly make for an interesting interpretation (or commonplace
of
>> >mush balladry, it seems), as there are a few ballads dealing on the
>> subject.
>> >My favourite being the ENGLISH ballad, Barbara Ellen.
>> >
>> >In the case of Ms Ellen (or Allen, for Childers) there is conclusive
>> TEXTUAL
>> >(internal) support. Notably, she hailed not from Dublin's fair city, but
>> >SCARLET town, and there's the suggestion that she, besides making the
guys
>> >in the town cry 'well-a-day', she had the disease standardly associated
>> with
>> >mediaeval pros, viz. syphilis, or some similar venereal disease. This
>> >provides the best literal interpretation for Jemmy lying in his grave
'for
>> >love of cruel Barbara Ellen'.
>> >
>> >'Cockles & Mussels' is reprinted in the Oxford Songbook. My first
>> >acquaintance with it came, though, from the use Dennis Potter makes of
it
>> in
>> >his play, 'Pennies from Heaven' (London: Faber) - where a character
plays
>> it
>> >in the piano in a London pub to the annoyance of the clients (He played
it
>> >badly, admittedly).
>> >
>> >In looking up in the Oxford Thesaurus for synonyms of 'prostitute' (in
>> >trying to think for a better subject title to this post), I come across
>> >'moll'. What more evidence do I need? :)
>> >
>> >Good luck in your reserach, and keep us informed.
>> >
>> >Best,
>> >J L Speranza
>> >Buenos Aires, Argentina.
>> >[log in to unmask]
>> >
>> >* * * * * * *
>> >B Boock writes: "I found the text in 'A Hundred Irish Ballads'. The text
>> >begins, 'In Dublin's fair city where the girls are so pretty...'. It has
>> >only three stanzas and is called 'Cockles & Mussels'. The author of the
>> song
>> >is not known. I would like to know how old it is and if there is any
>> >additional information about poor [Ms] Malone whose ghost is doomed to
cry
>> >out 'cockles and mussels' as she did all her lifetime long.
>> >
>> >
>>
>
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