Lawrence wrote the following in response to my earlier posting,




I've said this before:
If someone says "This always amuses me" or some similar construction, it is
more likely than not that they are not being amused at all, that they are
just taking the piss.
Which members, I wonder do you think are against boundaries? Perhaps also
you could say what you mean by that? Why you think that? Perhaps you have
muddled up your lists
I am not agreed that there is an arbitrariness etc. Where did that come
from?
|Is it because we want to be censurious and protect our turf?
What are you talking about?|What of| cultural rhythms?What are they?
This was an interesting thread. I was looking forward to following it and
perhaps joining in again. Let's not mess it up.L


Is this an example of nannying? I noticed that the discussion began by
looking at the definitions of rhythm. I thought these definitions went
against the radical impulse to do away with boundaries. I suggested that
there is an arbitrariness to rhythm --it differs from person to person. Take
for example walking. Because of many factors people in this country walk at
a different pace, and in a different manner to Europeans. For example
Japanese people have greater "contact" with each other because they have to
live in a confined space. When standing in a taxi line, they are closer than
they would be in the US or UK. Girls walk with their toes pointed inwards
because it cute and feminine, etc etc. Even noises are different because
they are heard within a cultural context --the buzz of a bee, and running
water has connotations from our experience, but also from what we were told
to listen for -- we are selective in what we sense, and that selection is
dependent upon our upbringing and culture. So the Chinese were told that
there are certain noises water makes, the cataract, the running stream and
so on. The pace, the rhythm of life, even the heart beat to a certain extent
is culturally dependent. A duck doesn't quack outside of England, it makes
ga ga sounds --etc. When we read or listen to Chinese, the rhythm often
defeats us because we are outside of it, or when Scriabin's works were first
played, the sounds were very difficult to appreciate. We can get accustomed
to another rhythm, sometimes it takes time, and perhaps we lose our
patience, but I think that there is an ultimate reward. A bus time table has
got rhythm. Everything can have rhythm, but rhythm alone doesn't make a
poem, nor does rhyme. It seems that for it to be a poem there must be
consensus? We are all agreed that a cow pat is not a poem, even if it is
placed in a rhythmic line, one metre a part. But how about

a 1 b 2 c 3 d 4 e 5

Is that a poem? I'm sure one can argue that it is a poem. Then if enough
agree, and it is published, then it must be poetry -- a bit like the process
of science. If we then add words

ass
1
bee
2
cat
3
dog
4
eel
5

We then have problems with the rhythm on account of the two syllables in
eel -- but the numbers in a contrapuntal manner can compensate for
this --which means I suppose that it is possible to develop a contrapuntal
or intricate rhythm with nonrhythmic parts? Indeed the nonrhythmic lends a
kind of assymetry to the poem. We find musical equivalens in Mahler and
Scriabin, Berg etc. But is it a poem? Well it looks more like a poem than
the first --and notice how much depends on the context. If the above numbers
and letters appear in a book of poetry, we make allowances --like when we go
into an art gallery and find dog turd on a floor, it is art. Art is zonal.
But there are those in favour of the Academy or traditional prosody who will
reject these forms of expression. I can accept the dog turd, and I can
accept a1 b2 c3 d4 e5 . . . can you? If not why not. Suppose horrors upon
horrors that it is signed

Prynne

or even worse

Motion

does that brand name make a difference? I think it does.





Regarding walking and writing. The lakeside poets were fond of doing that.
But as Richard has pointed out already is quite risky --dog shit etc -- I
prefer Mr. Donuts and the everlasting cup of coffee, and the only
distraction is kitsch art, noisy high school children, and the doughnut.

rhythm (for rosi)
a one, two, three,
and then
a slight
break,
four, five, six,
and lean
forward
like so
pro so
dy
now prose-poetry
and like dancing, if you
make a mistake
you bring the partner
down, tread on a foot,
mis-scan,
and while dancing, with you,
my hand caught a
Turkish girl on the nose,
oophs, I am so sorry
a one, two, three
and there
must be more
to it than this,
four, five, six,
endless repetitition
seven, eight, nine
so much for tradition,
why not improvise?
three, one, two
and do away
with numbers, and
the metrical system
a, b, c
but what happens if
your partner, the reader
has a difficulty?
a one, two, three
and I suppose
I have to take all of them
by the ear
four, five, six
and keep on
like now
is it possible to make
a recovery?
I mean once you
embark on a course
of action, can you
like ice skaters get off
your butt and continue
a one, two, three
and is it permissible to take
sounds from ten lines above
a slight pause
and give them a new shake
four, five, six
now that's more like it
and we give
each other a bow.
a one, two, three.





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