First off, is this the appropriate forum for this discussion? Would it be
better taken to wales.cymraeg?

In mail.termau-cymraeg, Darren Wyn Rees wrote:

>> Mae'n werth chofio ni chododd y termau Saesneg sy'n cael eu defnyddio yn
>> newyddion gyda chymorth o unrhyw bwrdd swyddogol. Yn wir, prosiect amatur
>> oedd "Usenet" o'r ddechrau, a mae'r teimlad hon yn llenwi'r rhwyd heddiw.
>
> 1979 is a key-date, as I recall

The creation of Usenet, at Duke University, IIRC.

> :  you are, of course, correct and i think i catch the  gist of what you're
> saying.   there was no quangoified bureaucracy involved.   

I note your dislike of quango's. While I agree that they're an Evil Thing
in the real world, I've noticed you bashing the concept of a volunteer
translation team on that basis. You might want to consider that the UVV
and UKVoting are volunteer teams where an offer to stand is accepted.
There are some things on Usenet for which it's difficult to find hordes
of people willing to do it.

We're not talking about setting up hugely-subsidised organisations; just
keeping a list of people willing to translate documents from Welsh to
English and vice-versa, and another (eventually) of people willing to
handle votes. They can be as accountable as we make them.

> however, the development of usenet was given a strong fillip from
> academia (in North America) as other aspects of the net.

Yep.

>> >[followup] neges sy'n dilyn neges arall, a'r [newsreader]
>> >             yn [threading] y negeseuon...

Newsreader is tricky. I can't think of anything that has the simplicity
of that term and is still a more or less direct translation. "Darlleniadur
newyddion" is too clumsy, unless it gets abbreviated (and then it'll get
confused with DejaNews).

What about trying for an abbreviation of "meddalwedd" to "MW", and using
"MW-newyddion", "MW-e-bost", "MW-gwe" and so on? It's the best my admittedly
poor Welsh can manage. :)

"Threading" is worse. I've checked two dictionaries, and can't find an
equivalent to the verb "thread" as in "thread a needle". The closest is
"nodwyddo", which is obviously derived from "nodwydd" and doesn't make
sense in context.

The best I can think of is to go with "trefnu", and let context sort it out.
For a noun, "trefn erthyglau" is a possibility.

> (some prefer the 'etymology-friendly' implications of using "rheolaeth"
> for things-control, because that's what control messages are used for:
> to manage a news system and/or server)

Yes.

> i think you missed "control message" - which is at the crux of this.

"Erthygl rheolaeth". Simple.

>> >	  		[types of control messages : newgroup, rmgroup, 
>> >							checkgroup...] 
>> Efallai bydd hi'n gwell i adael rhein yn Saesneg.
> yes, but by hook or by crook, they'll eventually be translated :
> eg. a "checkgroup" is, in the simplest form, a /list/ of newsgroups
> send to "newyddion" with any "newsreader" (gosh, I say, there's more
>							terms...)

But there's a point at which translation simply becomes absurd. Translating
programming languages or email addresses is clearly on the "wrong" side of
that gap (e.g. you wouldn't rename every OS command you could get your
hands on to a "suitable" Welsh translation). You wouldn't translate a URL
or an email address. Where is the line drawn? I think translating well-
known acronyms is on the "wrong" side of the line -- a written-out term
is easily interpretable from context, but an acronym is liable to get the
"Duh?" reaction.

"... safle PTFf"
"Duh?"
"Ftp site."
"wel, pam na *wedaist* ti FTP, 'te?"

If translation interferes with usability or ease of understanding, or
is simply too obscure, I think a term should be left in its original form.

>> Rwy'n meddwl bydd e'n well i gadael termau sydd a^ ddefnydd technegol, fel
>> y fathoedd gwahanol o erthyglau control, enwau protocolau, a'r fath beth.
>> Os ddefnyddiwn ni termau Cymraeg yn sgyrsio, dydi hi ddim yn mynd i newid
>> y ffaith hon: ni weithia'r termau Cymraeg gyda'r meddalwedd newyddion. Y
>> gorchmynion yw newgroup, rmgroup, checkgroups, ayyb; does ddim ffordd i ni
>> newid hon.
>						may be, probly

It's not going to happen. There are hundreds of languages. Imagine the
bloat if every one had to be supported. English *is* the international
language of computing. It would take a sea change for that to, er, change,
and the language that comes out on top ain't going to be Welsh. More
likely Mandarin Chinese, or Japanese.

Creating a Welsh locale, so to speak, for suitable software is a possibility.
Don't know if anyone's working on it ... But this isn't the same thing
as actually translating commands. We're not talking about the equivalent
of setting up a language database for PGP; we're talking about translating
"PGP" or "locale" to their Welsh equivalents.

>> >	[ftp site] gofod, 'lle' yn troelli ar ddisg rhywle
>> Safle FTP? File Transfer Protocol : protocol trosglwyddo ffeiliau?
> PTFf is what was used for the original RFD (fsck, that's another term...
> Request For Discussion, see *below*) for uk.politics.welch-assembly

It's a simple translation and makes sense. #include <acronym.disclaimer.h>

>> > [web site]
>> >	[lluosog, "websites"] safleoedd we? safweoedd? gwefannau?
>> >				rhwydfannau?  rhwydlefydd?
>> Safle we?
> i've seen about five or six version of this... as used bi various
> quangos in wales.  still interested in the ;lluosog;

Safleoedd we, I guess, to be consistent with the singular. Though I do
like "gwefannau". "Rhwydfan" turns my stomach, because it's too close
to translating the horror-phrase "Internet site" (web? ftp? gopher? duh?).

Don't S4C and all use "safle we"? If the media are using a term, it's a
lost battle. Though I'm not clear on the number of Welsh speakers who
actually pay any attention to the Welsh media ...

>> > [internet service provider] yr acronym "ISP"
>> Darparwr Gwasanaeth Rhyngrwyd?
> seems quite reasonable ;) but for some reason we are using
>	"cyflenwydd gwasanaethau rhyngrhwyd" 

"Cyflenwydd"? Fill, fulfill, what? <scrabbles for dictionary> "Supplier".
Since "darparu" seems to be used for gas, electricity supplier and what
all (and again I'm going by S4C usage here), it would seem to make sense
to keep that usage for Internet service, which is an "intangible" like
gas, telephone and so on.

>> > [digitally signed] gan ddefnyddio PGP (URL <http://www.pgp.net>)
>> Nid PGP yw'r unig meddalwedd 
> yes, totally, but

<PGP arguments snipped and acknowledged>

Have a look in the uk.net.news.management archives for the last few months.
There's talk about S/MIME signatures, which I think are a horror from the
seventh circle of hell or below, but which Some seem to think should be
permitted ... <shrug>. There *are* other emerging forms, and mandating PGP
is going to be a bit like mandating ASCII was. (Yes, this does relate
to my RFD, which is a topic for another place).

PGP is popular, but it also requires an expensive licence for commercial
use. This means that many news admins find it difficult to install --
they need to get a $5000 commercial licence approved and paid for. This
is part of the reason behind the GnuPG project.

</offtopic>

>>sy'n gallu llofnodu ddogfennau. Beth am
>> "llofnod ddigidol"?
> that's fine... there's another ten terms that you could look at here
> (and there's at least 5 - 10 pertinent RFDs that talk about encryption)

Do you mean RFC? If so, there's another one; I'm unable to find any reason
other than the obvious for not using "Cais am Drafodaeth" here as well.
How about "Cais am Drafodaeth Technegol" (CaDT, if you insist)?

>the CBAC book does not provide terms for the INTERNET 

No, but it does provide a limited starting point.

> the rep from the MEU (a sort of mini-Quango in South Wales) had
> the gall to describe the terms book to me late last year as
> totally "up to date" .... </duh> .... prior to making a transaction.

Does the GCSE syllabus deal with the Internet at all?

>> Efallai bydd ddechrau safle we sy'n cofnodi y termau mae pobl yn ddefnyddio
>> yn syniad gwell; rhywbeth fel fersiwn fach o'r "Jargon File", ond yng
>> Nghymraeg. Yn lle gwneud rhestr o termau y ddylai pobl ddefnyddio, gofnodi
>> beth maen nhw'n ddefnyddio.

I'd be willing to handle that -- perhaps a list on the web and in an
eventual wales.answers group, that lists suggested terms and terms in
common use?

I'll bash something out and put it up at
<URL:http://www.drmach.demon.co.uk/terms.html>.

> [RFD - request for discussion]
>	currently being translated/used as "cais am drafodaeth [CAD]"

Sounds good, though my opinions on acronyms are not changing yet.

> [CFV - call for votes]
>	currently being translated/used as "galwad am bleidlais [GAB]"

Also sounds good.

> blah. blah. blah. 		o.n. wyt ti'n gwybod unrhyw beth
>					am brotocol "multiple orgasm" ???

Ar y rhestr e-bost inet-access rw^an, mae'na drafodaeth yngly^n a^ rhyw
"Sushi Protocol"! Dyna'r orau 'dw i'n gallu ffindio nawr... :)

-- 
Rachael



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