Looks to me as though ChatGPT has matured to the level of doggerel. But just wait and see the capabilities of the 5th generation (due early 2026??)!
Dick Clements
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Prof R R Clements Tel: (Home) 01722-329362
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________________________________________
From: To exchange information and views on the life and work of Rudyard Kipling <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Janet Montefiore <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: 06 March 2023 17:01
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Roald Dahl (& The Road to Mandalay)
Doesn’t sound much like Barrack Room Ballads to me. This is supposed to be by the poet of The Widow of Windsor and Danny Deever? Come on! It isn’t even metrically inventive.
Sent from my iPhone
On 6 Mar 2023, at 16:27, William James <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organisation. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognise the sender and know the content is safe.
Thanks Jonathon - Hard to believe a bit of software searched the cloud and synthesized those rhymes in less than a minute. At some point perhaps my soft worn brain will have to be rebooted with the latest software. (Why not? - it seems a short few millimeters from tooth implants, cataract surgery and hearing aids! Conceivably ChatGPT has thoughts on the matter...)
-Bill
From: To exchange information and views on the life and work of Rudyard Kipling <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> On Behalf Of Modern Kipling
Sent: March 6, 2023 6:59 AM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Roald Dahl (& The Road to Mandalay)
I asked ChatGPT to give its opinion on this in the style of a Kipling Barrack Room Ballad and this is what it came back with:
When I was young and in my prime,
I wrote of soldiers and their time,
Of battles fought and deeds of might,
And men who faced their foes in fight.
My Barrack Room Ballads were the thing,
They made my name and made me sing,
Of courage, honour, and of strife,
And how men lead a soldier's life.
But now it seems my words offend,
To modern ears they will not bend,
They say I'm out of touch with time,
And that my views are out of line.
They call me jingoistic, harsh,
And say my words are full of rash,
That I don't understand their pain,
Or that I speak with words in vain.
But let me tell you, friends of mine,
That though I wrote in different times,
My words still speak of what is true,
Of honour, courage, valour too.
So though my name may fade away,
And though my words may seem passé,
I know that in the hearts of men,
My Barrack Room Ballads will live again.
Not enough dropped letters to be a true ballad but I found it interesting enough to share.
Jonathan
On 26 Feb 2023, at 21:46, William James <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
Agreed, Chris. It’s the only version I learnt and so it sounds perfect! According to Wikipedia there are 24 different songs set to RK’s “On the road to Mandalay” (who knew? probably the Kipling Society, somewhere):
Kipling's text was adapted by Oley Speaks<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FOley_Speaks&data=05%7C01%7CJ.E.Montefiore%40kent.ac.uk%7C5463a45879c74f0f7aad08db1e5f3689%7C51a9fa563f32449aa7213e3f49aa5e9a%7C0%7C0%7C638137168326708656%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=yqaN9CZWY0xOkTnGDVVdNBm6Fg2tEMk%2BDn%2BOcAYM90U%3D&reserved=0>[21]<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FMandalay_(poem)%23cite_note-Speaks-23&data=05%7C01%7CJ.E.Montefiore%40kent.ac.uk%7C5463a45879c74f0f7aad08db1e5f3689%7C51a9fa563f32449aa7213e3f49aa5e9a%7C0%7C0%7C638137168326708656%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=HQUhv2aNTmCXqxwbUw257pOH5F%2BbuaY6hj%2FJVWaptm0%3D&reserved=0> for what became his best-known song "On the Road to Mandalay<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FOn_the_Road_to_Mandalay_(song)&data=05%7C01%7CJ.E.Montefiore%40kent.ac.uk%7C5463a45879c74f0f7aad08db1e5f3689%7C51a9fa563f32449aa7213e3f49aa5e9a%7C0%7C0%7C638137168326708656%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=hcVFkJFZorP%2B7OV%2B8YIazhK8RlksGi7WM5%2FsZmC5jfk%3D&reserved=0>", which was popularized by Peter Dawson<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FPeter_Dawson_(bass-baritone)&data=05%7C01%7CJ.E.Montefiore%40kent.ac.uk%7C5463a45879c74f0f7aad08db1e5f3689%7C51a9fa563f32449aa7213e3f49aa5e9a%7C0%7C0%7C638137168326864903%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=QO4fzFceXi1FJ5zlSHzWin99W%2BeUGfvuTIBBjhYOXpo%3D&reserved=0>.[22]<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FMandalay_(poem)%23cite_note-FOOTNOTESelth2016112_and_throughout-24&data=05%7C01%7CJ.E.Montefiore%40kent.ac.uk%7C5463a45879c74f0f7aad08db1e5f3689%7C51a9fa563f32449aa7213e3f49aa5e9a%7C0%7C0%7C638137168326864903%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=if2e8aBKN204i%2BDxmC6t5P66XQsM3pXsEZCuzIqwa00%3D&reserved=0> Speaks sets the poem to music in 4/4 time<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2F4%2F4_time&data=05%7C01%7CJ.E.Montefiore%40kent.ac.uk%7C5463a45879c74f0f7aad08db1e5f3689%7C51a9fa563f32449aa7213e3f49aa5e9a%7C0%7C0%7C638137168326864903%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=lxQ%2FmgF%2FgD20%2Ft0aINCocqcJXhkOPP8ceTZe2%2BMgGZM%3D&reserved=0>, marked Alla Marcia; the key is E-flat major<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FE-flat_major&data=05%7C01%7CJ.E.Montefiore%40kent.ac.uk%7C5463a45879c74f0f7aad08db1e5f3689%7C51a9fa563f32449aa7213e3f49aa5e9a%7C0%7C0%7C638137168326864903%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=qTu8uH22H5QslMRbivBLjOqJP3njB%2BKmEN%2FlvanBrZE%3D&reserved=0>.[21]<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FMandalay_(poem)%23cite_note-Speaks-23&data=05%7C01%7CJ.E.Montefiore%40kent.ac.uk%7C5463a45879c74f0f7aad08db1e5f3689%7C51a9fa563f32449aa7213e3f49aa5e9a%7C0%7C0%7C638137168326864903%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=vIV5FjzqcqL5Vc1YUS0sEfy59%2BtfRSKwYqUWq5UMhnc%3D&reserved=0>[23]<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FMandalay_(poem)%23cite_note-25&data=05%7C01%7CJ.E.Montefiore%40kent.ac.uk%7C5463a45879c74f0f7aad08db1e5f3689%7C51a9fa563f32449aa7213e3f49aa5e9a%7C0%7C0%7C638137168326864903%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ICFzTBr2pm0tGi6LQaQp8X3hlbS%2FlZXr7obTU8e%2BtGI%3D&reserved=0> This version largely replaced six earlier musical settings of Mandalay (by Gerard Cobb<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FGerard_Cobb&data=05%7C01%7CJ.E.Montefiore%40kent.ac.uk%7C5463a45879c74f0f7aad08db1e5f3689%7C51a9fa563f32449aa7213e3f49aa5e9a%7C0%7C0%7C638137168326864903%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=MdJ4hcoA0b2k4xcwXRMGAjwBU8DInl3j4gmE39%2Bt8jo%3D&reserved=0> (1892), Arthur Thayer (1892), Henry Trevannion (1898), Walter Damrosch<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FWalter_Damrosch&data=05%7C01%7CJ.E.Montefiore%40kent.ac.uk%7C5463a45879c74f0f7aad08db1e5f3689%7C51a9fa563f32449aa7213e3f49aa5e9a%7C0%7C0%7C638137168326864903%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=%2Bp%2F7P43GZblPRZ3yVyi6EBYVzf4ApBr%2BZLiIdgHAaiU%3D&reserved=0> (1898), Walter Hedgcock (1899), and Arthur Whiting (1900); Percy Grainger<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FPercy_Grainger&data=05%7C01%7CJ.E.Montefiore%40kent.ac.uk%7C5463a45879c74f0f7aad08db1e5f3689%7C51a9fa563f32449aa7213e3f49aa5e9a%7C0%7C0%7C638137168326864903%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=TQMtp3VRxDg6bAck8sKHtlOeVRPPco61P4%2FybcnM5Ic%3D&reserved=0> composed another in 1898, but did not publish it).[4]<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FMandalay_(poem)%23cite_note-Selth_2015-5&data=05%7C01%7CJ.E.Montefiore%40kent.ac.uk%7C5463a45879c74f0f7aad08db1e5f3689%7C51a9fa563f32449aa7213e3f49aa5e9a%7C0%7C0%7C638137168326864903%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=YxcDcCHr8MsHml6JDp1GdAlL4qS2FffKL91NdYfAAHk%3D&reserved=0> The total number of settings is now at least 24, spanning jazz<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FJazz&data=05%7C01%7CJ.E.Montefiore%40kent.ac.uk%7C5463a45879c74f0f7aad08db1e5f3689%7C51a9fa563f32449aa7213e3f49aa5e9a%7C0%7C0%7C638137168326864903%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=wADAXPqKAlo9IIQn1fO%2B64Z0UooIMX4QENav7hMgU3Y%3D&reserved=0>, ragtime<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FRagtime&data=05%7C01%7CJ.E.Montefiore%40kent.ac.uk%7C5463a45879c74f0f7aad08db1e5f3689%7C51a9fa563f32449aa7213e3f49aa5e9a%7C0%7C0%7C638137168326864903%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ydZFIyjFl5yTeoYR49D81uAK5SuYkMM%2FJ15H2abgniI%3D&reserved=0>, swing<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FSwing_music&data=05%7C01%7CJ.E.Montefiore%40kent.ac.uk%7C5463a45879c74f0f7aad08db1e5f3689%7C51a9fa563f32449aa7213e3f49aa5e9a%7C0%7C0%7C638137168326864903%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=LicQ69iLcRZA74MxOrMvHIoP%2BduFgzI4qn6manEmXqU%3D&reserved=0>, pop<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FPop_music&data=05%7C01%7CJ.E.Montefiore%40kent.ac.uk%7C5463a45879c74f0f7aad08db1e5f3689%7C51a9fa563f32449aa7213e3f49aa5e9a%7C0%7C0%7C638137168327021143%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=gNeU%2F%2FZrz3M9Oyipte5pXkNsIQXIVYXEHeHmO0vMDbg%3D&reserved=0>, folk<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FFolk_music&data=05%7C01%7CJ.E.Montefiore%40kent.ac.uk%7C5463a45879c74f0f7aad08db1e5f3689%7C51a9fa563f32449aa7213e3f49aa5e9a%7C0%7C0%7C638137168327021143%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=P7NQyhI9D7DZ2uvNUUNRxJhB4CPPYNvPJVjPJjmbpeI%3D&reserved=0>, and country music<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FCountry_music&data=05%7C01%7CJ.E.Montefiore%40kent.ac.uk%7C5463a45879c74f0f7aad08db1e5f3689%7C51a9fa563f32449aa7213e3f49aa5e9a%7C0%7C0%7C638137168327021143%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=D4dz76GQDFvkNWjC0X3kNmbW48iJVg4FDOsrJOw%2B9U8%3D&reserved=0>; most of them use only the first two and the last two stanzas, with the chorus.[4]<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FMandalay_(poem)%23cite_note-Selth_2015-5&data=05%7C01%7CJ.E.Montefiore%40kent.ac.uk%7C5463a45879c74f0f7aad08db1e5f3689%7C51a9fa563f32449aa7213e3f49aa5e9a%7C0%7C0%7C638137168327021143%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=jgDrPJXab%2Bqu4mIeCNQwdnh1pmNJqA6FCqu6zsXqXf8%3D&reserved=0> Versions also exist in French, Danish, German, and Russian.[4]<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FMandalay_(poem)%23cite_note-Selth_2015-5&data=05%7C01%7CJ.E.Montefiore%40kent.ac.uk%7C5463a45879c74f0f7aad08db1e5f3689%7C51a9fa563f32449aa7213e3f49aa5e9a%7C0%7C0%7C638137168327021143%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=jgDrPJXab%2Bqu4mIeCNQwdnh1pmNJqA6FCqu6zsXqXf8%3D&reserved=0> Arranged and conducted by Billy May<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FBilly_May&data=05%7C01%7CJ.E.Montefiore%40kent.ac.uk%7C5463a45879c74f0f7aad08db1e5f3689%7C51a9fa563f32449aa7213e3f49aa5e9a%7C0%7C0%7C638137168327021143%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=9ZVGxb4BJvemnnxX%2F%2F2hEVsZyBbb9k%2FkGgq1zCC4J2M%3D&reserved=0>, Speaks's setting appears in Frank Sinatra<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FFrank_Sinatra&data=05%7C01%7CJ.E.Montefiore%40kent.ac.uk%7C5463a45879c74f0f7aad08db1e5f3689%7C51a9fa563f32449aa7213e3f49aa5e9a%7C0%7C0%7C638137168327021143%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=l0qNsq9Xnd4jekW85l%2B7zOboxUqc5eSqiDNzOtLshaY%3D&reserved=0>'s album Come Fly with Me<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FCome_Fly_with_Me_(Frank_Sinatra_album)&data=05%7C01%7CJ.E.Montefiore%40kent.ac.uk%7C5463a45879c74f0f7aad08db1e5f3689%7C51a9fa563f32449aa7213e3f49aa5e9a%7C0%7C0%7C638137168327021143%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=mekh935dSXLeBqM3zNyuMnWMctsGhDC%2BPRe%2F05lkDa4%3D&reserved=0>. Kipling's daughter and heiress objected to this version, which turned Kipling's Burma girl into a Burma broad, the temple-bells into crazy bells, and the man, who east of Suez can raise a thirst, into a cat.[22]<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FMandalay_(poem)%23cite_note-FOOTNOTESelth2016112_and_throughout-24&data=05%7C01%7CJ.E.Montefiore%40kent.ac.uk%7C5463a45879c74f0f7aad08db1e5f3689%7C51a9fa563f32449aa7213e3f49aa5e9a%7C0%7C0%7C638137168327021143%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=LRUWSIZLnQidni9D2iogcGw9GmZ4YCsU3mtNKiYPUaY%3D&reserved=0> Sinatra sang the song in Australia in 1959 and relayed the story of the Kipling family's objections to the song.[24]<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FMandalay_(poem)%23cite_note-26&data=05%7C01%7CJ.E.Montefiore%40kent.ac.uk%7C5463a45879c74f0f7aad08db1e5f3689%7C51a9fa563f32449aa7213e3f49aa5e9a%7C0%7C0%7C638137168327021143%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=vB3%2FJhCAiMK64wHEEE0eE8ay2ctqPJAEdrfM46gr4SE%3D&reserved=0> Bertolt Brecht<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FBertolt_Brecht&data=05%7C01%7CJ.E.Montefiore%40kent.ac.uk%7C5463a45879c74f0f7aad08db1e5f3689%7C51a9fa563f32449aa7213e3f49aa5e9a%7C0%7C0%7C638137168327021143%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=%2FqWMqgcFqoQWPENjVcYqccJRwfH7Mmnl1Jd9Aql4HhQ%3D&reserved=0> referred to Kipling's poem in his Mandalay Song<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FMandalay_Song&data=05%7C01%7CJ.E.Montefiore%40kent.ac.uk%7C5463a45879c74f0f7aad08db1e5f3689%7C51a9fa563f32449aa7213e3f49aa5e9a%7C0%7C0%7C638137168327021143%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=DcKl4gkKARIRWL2AyejCtVA7pZTlNGO%2FBuRNPPMNYzg%3D&reserved=0>, which was set to music by Kurt Weill<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FKurt_Weill&data=05%7C01%7CJ.E.Montefiore%40kent.ac.uk%7C5463a45879c74f0f7aad08db1e5f3689%7C51a9fa563f32449aa7213e3f49aa5e9a%7C0%7C0%7C638137168327021143%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=GF%2BYQMz%2FNad%2BWj7Mi5HgX3RfVjd9mEduTbBIpwRk3bc%3D&reserved=0> for Happy End<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FHappy_End_(musical)&data=05%7C01%7CJ.E.Montefiore%40kent.ac.uk%7C5463a45879c74f0f7aad08db1e5f3689%7C51a9fa563f32449aa7213e3f49aa5e9a%7C0%7C0%7C638137168327021143%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=1JUchhIoIMskPrLqfnjgsOgE%2FUfJ8k9iU6hOu8Kw%2Bjw%3D&reserved=0> and Rise and Fall of the City of Mahagonny<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FRise_and_Fall_of_the_City_of_Mahagonny&data=05%7C01%7CJ.E.Montefiore%40kent.ac.uk%7C5463a45879c74f0f7aad08db1e5f3689%7C51a9fa563f32449aa7213e3f49aa5e9a%7C0%7C0%7C638137168327021143%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=yNZ60BYG75vaK%2BaJaxnpNz0%2BngW%2BDFnqDQrT1qjpwiE%3D&reserved=0>.[25]<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FMandalay_(poem)%23cite_note-Weill_1929-27&data=05%7C01%7CJ.E.Montefiore%40kent.ac.uk%7C5463a45879c74f0f7aad08db1e5f3689%7C51a9fa563f32449aa7213e3f49aa5e9a%7C0%7C0%7C638137168327177403%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=D8dE0gl4PZxG%2FWr8yeXTJVJkVrGNlSqS2OZNxHz0Mzg%3D&reserved=0>[26]<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FMandalay_(poem)%23cite_note-Selth79-28&data=05%7C01%7CJ.E.Montefiore%40kent.ac.uk%7C5463a45879c74f0f7aad08db1e5f3689%7C51a9fa563f32449aa7213e3f49aa5e9a%7C0%7C0%7C638137168327177403%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=DZ0%2BRtWBYoZH2GsL1izEmop5bTmrguWTge4ajisjjgM%3D&reserved=0>[27]<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FMandalay_(poem)%23cite_note-FOOTNOTESelth2016109-29&data=05%7C01%7CJ.E.Montefiore%40kent.ac.uk%7C5463a45879c74f0f7aad08db1e5f3689%7C51a9fa563f32449aa7213e3f49aa5e9a%7C0%7C0%7C638137168327177403%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=CT5jV2WC6PjCU3bSJmEixjwQjgiqrriTodS0fpuZAig%3D&reserved=0>
-Bill
From: Christopher Holmes <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
Sent: February 26, 2023 8:24 AM
To: William James <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>; [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Roald Dahl (& The Road to Mandalay)
Thank you Bill,
The Peter Dawson recording is a super rendering, and uses the better of the two tunes I feel. I was reminded that many verses are missing from his recording when I listened to this version:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vw9cJwrktn8<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dvw9cJwrktn8&data=05%7C01%7CJ.E.Montefiore%40kent.ac.uk%7C5463a45879c74f0f7aad08db1e5f3689%7C51a9fa563f32449aa7213e3f49aa5e9a%7C0%7C0%7C638137168327177403%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=NQbBC6AQgR538V5d7DsyL0zXNKuVsHY2y38SAIm9Og0%3D&reserved=0>
If anyone knows of a recording using Peter Dawson’s tune but with all the verses included I’d be glad to hear of it.
Chris Holmes
From: To exchange information and views on the life and work of Rudyard Kipling <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> On Behalf Of William James
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2023 9:47 PM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Roald Dahl
Perhaps also partly the endless tug-o-war between conservatism and progressive liberalism, which in Canadian politics seems to rhythmically pendulate between the two extremes, two pendulums synchronously balanced at 180 degrees between Queen’s Park in Toronto and The Hill in Ottawa. RK would have had something to say about it.
I wonder if other members of this list were brought up listening to our parents’ 78 rpm records of the Aussie bass-baritone Peter Dawson singing “On the road to Mandalay”https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6nyHsP_FTI<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DQ6nyHsP_FTI&data=05%7C01%7CJ.E.Montefiore%40kent.ac.uk%7C5463a45879c74f0f7aad08db1e5f3689%7C51a9fa563f32449aa7213e3f49aa5e9a%7C0%7C0%7C638137168327177403%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=s4zAMJ%2FEL%2BrDkVWmaOlnyMHLx%2FtTTKtf4mX%2F0MJ6cts%3D&reserved=0> As you say, a different universe from today’s woke detractors. Other songs on the LP in the link are evocative of the times, which to me seem somehow to have been pragmatic. It would be interesting to have a list of recorded music of RK’s time.
-Bill
From: To exchange information and views on the life and work of Rudyard Kipling <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> On Behalf Of Robert Baillie
Sent: February 24, 2023 3:46 PM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Roald Dahl
Ahhh…………by the old Moulmein Pagoda…………
the heart-wrenching longing of a “simple British tommy” for his “neater, sweeter maiden in a cleaner, greener land………
God Save The Queen……but give me Burma. Worked for me.
Ordinary Brits couldn’t afford expensive holidays on the riviera, but if they took The Queen’s Shilling, they could have the Real Thing.
Kipling saw……and lived…..some ironies I suspect his modern Woke detractors don’t begin to guess at.
Rusty
On Feb 22, 2023, at 7:55 PM, Rob Harris <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
and of course he preferred his Burma Girl (Mandalay) because Burmese were feisty and not submissive.
On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 at 16:01, Robert Baillie <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
This has become an interesting exchange.
Kipling, his ideas and his causes, can still engage us fully……on many levels.
Seems to me that there may be at least two things emerging:
The first, highlighted by the Engineers — Ceremony question, is simply an evolutionary process in society.
If times change and Canadian Engineers want a different ceremony ,then, surely, they should devise one. The same goes for a public eager for politically correct stories and role models. That’s just reality in a free enterprise market-based economy. Writers, most often, have to write saleable material.
Although, one gets a fascinating impression that maybe Kipling did not pander to popular tastes. Maybe he could, eventually, afford to be picky……..or maybe he just had very strong beliefs.
Which is complicated, given his strong relationship with the Royal Family BUT his refusal to accept Royal offers?
The apocryphal story of his being taken off the short list for the Poet Laureate after his publication of The Widow At Windsor is obviously factually incorrect, but Kipling was definitely a very complex person.
A second scenario leads me to prefer to see Kipling preserved intact:
I don’t find him bigoted, reactionary or blinded by Empire. In fact, I find him taking regular potshots at the corporate establishment in his work.
Gunga Din is one of the most profound examples I have found of the dichotomy of global interaction. How can anyone be more humble…..or realistic and true?!
I personally would rather not have censoring hacks expressing such a work in “more empathetic” language.
As Rob Harris points out; the original books will always exist (?)…….but I would rather not have to go to the Ancient Literature reading room of the British Library to read myGunga Din.
Thank You All
Rusty
On Feb 22, 2023, at 4:36 PM, William James <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
Not replying specifically to those below on this thread, but to the list at large, I note that as we speak here, the persistent Canadian debate on wording and attitudes in Kipling’s Ritual of the Calling of the Engineer is being taken up by others with opinions on the matter [Canadian engineers call for change to their private ‘iron ring’ ceremony steeped in colonialism - https://theconversation.com/canadian-engineers-call-for-change-to-their-private-iron-ring-ceremony-steeped-in-colonialism-194897<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftheconversation.com%2Fcanadian-engineers-call-for-change-to-their-private-iron-ring-ceremony-steeped-in-colonialism-194897&data=05%7C01%7CJ.E.Montefiore%40kent.ac.uk%7C5463a45879c74f0f7aad08db1e5f3689%7C51a9fa563f32449aa7213e3f49aa5e9a%7C0%7C0%7C638137168327177403%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=o5wRbTL76zR5R%2B0Ud65k4DmJJu8nMzgpnrDX4DY1TNM%3D&reserved=0>] – a piece strongly worded: the “ceremony is steeped in outdated and harmful worldviews, including colonialism, racism and sexism.<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2Fdocument%2Fd%2F1Jz2NKOovcDsjAqB_FDWHS_P77Yb8tn1HjYnGbd42fnA%2Fedit&data=05%7C01%7CJ.E.Montefiore%40kent.ac.uk%7C5463a45879c74f0f7aad08db1e5f3689%7C51a9fa563f32449aa7213e3f49aa5e9a%7C0%7C0%7C638137168327177403%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=pJp%2FOG%2B8PL7qpx8JIB7DeibuE%2FOR1UhLHXdVJweEkRQ%3D&reserved=0>” Moreover, “it includes readings from Christian texts, as well as language and symbolism that is explicitly religious and/or patriarchal.” This suggests to me an objection to references to “Sons of Martha”.
Personally I would prefer to work my way through historical origins and attitudes, believing I can deal with it intellectually, but I accept that many hold contrary views. RK lived there and then, was a superb writer, and of course did not know any of what we have all subsequently learnt. He happened to be personally known to certain prominent Canadian engineers of the day, who wanted to create some sort of ceremonial tradition, engineers who were also products of those times and attitudes. I agree that the Kipling ritual smacks of the occult, and has little to say about our treatment of the natural environment (which is where my professional engineering life is focussed). I hope to have sustained high levels of engineering ethics both in practice and in my teaching, but credit that more to reading the usual moral philosophers, especially British, and more recent environmentalists, mostly American than anything else; it had nothing to do with the memory of the quaint ritual. Probably the ritual will indeed be sanitized, and maybe the original citation in The Bible in time also. I understand a recommendation is that the rewritten ceremony include words acknowledging and apologising for the “errors” of past rituals. Reactions might exacerbate the debate.
Re-reading Jane Austen, should we confess and apologise to those now thought to have been maligned?
And while we’re about it, for school histories, will “they” rewrite buffoon statements by idiot world leaders (bragging about groping women, suggesting injecting bleach to fight coronavirus, etc., etc.)? Or will we be allowed to know the stark reality of what actually transpired?
It’s important I think to trek through historically prickly areas in thin moccasins, if only to know how many miles we’ve come.
From: To exchange information and views on the life and work of Rudyard Kipling <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> On Behalf Of Rob Harris
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2023 5:56 PM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Roald Dahl
A disclaimer to the effect that:
'xx and yy reflect attitudes and language prevalent at the time. While these sound strange or even offensive to modern readers, this should not detract from the xx and yy values of the work'
On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 at 09:50, Modern Kipling <modern.kipling@gmailcom<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
I agree that there are some areas where changes make sense as some words or sentences most readers wouldn’t want to read out loud - even Dahl did it as the Oompah Loompa were black African quasi-slaves in the earliest editions until he changed them. And then there are things such as how Christie’s book that was renamed “Ten Little Indians” then “And then there were none”.
I think that you could argue that these changes along with the examples you highlight can be made as “the reasonable person” would likely find them unreasonable in 2022. But I think it was the extent and range of changes that upset people. For example, the email I sent to this list the other day where it highlighted that Kipling had been replaced by Austen and Steinbeck as Matilda’s authors of choice for no clear reason.
It’s not easy. I have been off and on (mostly off though I should get round to posting more) in updating the Barrack Room Ballads into a language that is easier to parse while trying to retain the spirit and posting them publicly on Medium. A few of the ballads include words that I would not be comfortable reading out loud (nor would many on YouTube as I couldn’t find many examples of them being read out).
The first question for me was whether would want my so-called updated versions but I thought I’d publish and be damned - if I found it easier to enjoy the text if I could read it clearer so thought others may, although I suspect some of this list may disagree.
The next was what to do about the language and the themes, such as Gunga Din, where it could be read as quite patronising. In the end I opted to keep the words and themes and explain why<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmedium.com%2Fkipling-updated%2Fupdating-kiplings-barrack-room-ballads-95dfcd4d9f69&data=05%7C01%7CJ.E.Montefiore%40kent.ac.uk%7C5463a45879c74f0f7aad08db1e5f3689%7C51a9fa563f32449aa7213e3f49aa5e9a%7C0%7C0%7C638137168327177403%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=7G1Mxvth9HPKfVNZqXdrlVkjm8iDhN8H8i6UFIiJFOs%3D&reserved=0>. As I was working as the army as a civilian at the time I did try to find soldiers from diverse backgrounds to get their views but no takers (and I don’t blame them, the army is rather short staffed with a lot of demands).
I’m not saying my approach is the right one but I think that after having thought a fair bit about it then explaining the reasoning and warning those who may be sensitive to terms or themes that they were coming was my preference. Saying that, I created this separate email address in case I did get a backlash so that it’d be directed to this rather than my main account…
Jonathan
On 22 Feb 2023, at 18:12, Mike Kipling <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
There are parts of Kipling’s children’s books I would not be comfortable to read out loud to children in the UK today. For example, all that spanking in ‘The Elephant’s Child’ or anything about the Ethiopian’s skin (putting the spots on the leopard with colour form his fingers, someone saying ‘Can the Ethiopian change his skin…’). The former because spanking would be classed as child abuse, and the latter as I do not know how a child of colour might react to it (and may be taunted afterwards by other children). I can understand teachers and others feeling similarly about some aspects of Dahl which may be seen as negative to minorities. After all, the last thing teachers need are angry parents.
Mike
From: To exchange information and views on the life and work of Rudyard Kipling <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> On Behalf Of Harish Trivedi
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2023 5:22 PM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Roald Dahl
What a terrifyingly apt quotation!
On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 at 8:38 PM, Jane Keskar <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
Simon Heffer writing in the Telegraph today quotes from George Orwell’s 1984.
“Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book has been rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street and building has been renamed, every date has been altered. and that process is continuing day by day and minute by minute” Dahl is just the tip of the iceberg writes Simon Heffer. As Heffer says Dahl must be turning in his grave
Who next?
Jane Keskar
Sent from my iPad
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