Dear Ian,
I stand corrected: I should have realized before writing rather than
afterwards that you were surely stressing the formalization (or
formalisation) part.
Cheers,
Navdeep
---
On 02.07.20 22:09, Ian Tickle wrote:
>
> Hi Navdeep
>
> Yes good point, the principle of redundancy (though they wouldn't have
> used that term!) has a very long history, but von Neumann did more than
> anyone before him to formalise it:
>
> http://www.cyclify.com/wiki/images/a/af/Von_Neumann_Probabilistic_Logics_and_the_Synthesis_of_Reliable_Organisms_from_Unreliable_Components.pdf
>
> Cheers
>
> -- Ian
>
>
> On Thu, 2 Jul 2020 at 11:58, Navdeep Sidhu <[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
>
> Dear Ian,
>
> You seem to be slightly off there: The successful use of repeating
> observations to reduce (especially systematic) observational error
> predates von Neumann by at least 4 centuries.
>
> One of the first instances of its use was in the 1500s, due to a migrant
> scientist working in Denmark and Prague, Czech Republic: Tycho Brahe,
> whom "the divine goodness [had] given to us" (Kepler).
>
> Best regards,
> Navdeep
>
>
> ---
> On 01.07.20 17:38, Ian Tickle wrote:
> >
> > Yes this seems to be a common misunderstanding, that the meanings of
> > words such as 'redundancy' have to be the same in an informal
> > non-scientific context and in a formal technical/scientific context.
> >
> > So we can say that in an informal context, 'redundancy' means
> > "unnecessary duplication (or multiplication) without a purpose",
> and in
> > a formal context it has come to mean, ever since John von Neumann
> > pioneered the idea in the 1950s, "duplication / multiplication
> with the
> > express purpose of improving the reliability of the outcome".
> > 'Multiplicity / multiplication' is neutral with regard to purpose.
> >
> > This divergence of meanings should hardly come as a surprise to
> anyone,
> > and also not surprisingly the informal meaning tends to be rather
> > ill-defined, for example 'theory' used informally means "hypothesis,
> > hunch, speculation, conjecture etc.", whereas in a scientific
> context it
> > has the precise meaning "A coherent
> > <https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/coherent> statement
> > <https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/statement> or set of ideas
> that explains
> > <https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/explain> observed
> > <https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/observe> facts
> > <https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fact> or phenomena
> > <https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/phenomenon> and correctly predicts new
> > facts or phenomena not previously observed, or which sets out the laws
> > <https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/law> and principles of something known
> > or observed; a hypothesis confirmed by observation, experiment etc."
> > (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/theory).
> >
> > "The Hypothesis of Evolution" anyone ?
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > -- Ian
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 at 14:30, Phil Evans <[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> > <mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>> wrote:
> >
> > I changed the annotation from “Redundancy” to “Multiplicity” in
> > Scala, later in Aimless, after I was taken to task by Elspeth
> Garman
> > with the argument as stated, that if it’s redundant why did you
> > bother to measure it?
> >
> > (this one could run and run …)
> >
> > Phil
> >
> > > On 30 Jun 2020, at 14:07, Ian Tickle <[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> > <mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > I agree about RAID but I would go a lot further. There seems to
> > be some confusion here over the correct meaning of 'redundant' as
> > used in a scientific context. I don't think looking it up in an
> > English dictionary is very helpful. So as has been mentioned the
> > non-scientific and rather imprecise meanings are "not or no longer
> > needed or useful; superfluous" or "exceeding what is necessary or
> > natural; superfluous" and "needlessly repetitive; verbose".
> In fact
> > both redundant and abundant have the same Latin etymology, and
> > redundant literally means 're' (again) + 'unda' (wave), i.e.
> > 'repeating as a wave'. The original meaning in English is in fact
> > 'over-abundant' and is still used in poetry with that meaning
> (e.g.
> > "as redundant as the poppies in the field"). There's of
> course also
> > the meaning 'dismissal from a job due to a need to reduce the head
> > count' and from there 'out of work', but that's relatively recent
> > having been coined by a UK Government official in the 1900s!
> > >
> > > The correct and totally precise scientific meaning which is
> > appropriate in the context of this discussion is to be found here:
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redundancy_(engineering) . Note
> that
> > it applies equally to both hardware and software engineering:
> > >
> > > Redundancy is the duplication of critical components or
> functions
> > of a system with the intention of increasing reliability of the
> > system, usually in the form of a backup or fail-safe, or to
> improve
> > actual system performance.
> > >
> > > Nothing there about not or no longer needed or useful,
> > superfluous, needlessly repetitive, verbose! Note that
> > 'multiplicity' totally fails to carry the connotation of
> increasing
> > the system reliability by duplication (i.e. there are multiple
> > copies but there's nothing that indicates the justification for
> > them). Redundancy occurs in TMR (triple modular redundancy)
> systems
> > used (as I guess Bernhard knows well) in triplicated control
> systems
> > in commercial aircraft. I don't know about you but I wouldn't
> > regard the extra two backup systems in TMR as 'not needed or
> useful'
> > when I'm an airline passenger !
> > >
> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_modular_redundancy
> > >
> > > More is always better when it's critical:
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://www.isa.org/standards-and-publications/isa-publications/intech-magazine/2003/october/more-is-always-better-when-its-critical
> > >
> > > There's also the question of the same word (redundancy,
> > multiplicity or whatever) having different meanings according to
> > context. That's unavoidable given that the number of concepts
> that
> > we might want to name far exceeds the number of words
> available, so
> > we have to rely heavily on context when assigning meaning. We
> don't
> > say what the context is so the context must be obvious and
> > unambiguous. Whether we're talking about RAID or losing one's job
> > it's obvious what the intended meaning is from the context because
> > the contexts are totally separate. The important thing is
> that the
> > contexts should be well-separated so that no confusion is
> possible.
> > Graeme says he's not confused by the various meanings of
> > 'multiplicity' but non-crystallographer consumers of Table 1
> surely
> > might be! The various contexts in which 'multiplicity' is
> used are
> > certainly not well-separated and overlap in program outputs and
> > documentation, allowing plenty of scope for confusion.
> > >
> > > In a scientific context 'redundancy' has a unique precise
> meaning
> > whereas 'multiplicity' has a multiplicity!
> > >
> > > BTW I use CCP4/Aimless and 'redundancy' (as you no doubt
> will have
> > guessed, because it's the word that unambiguously describes the
> > concept), so apparently I'm with you lot across the pond on this!
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > >
> > > -- Ian
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 at 09:01, David Waterman
> <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> > <mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>>
> wrote:
> > > Reflections are as "redundant" as the disks in a RAID 0 array
> > >
> > > On Tue, 30 Jun 2020, 02:49 James Holton, <[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> > <mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>> wrote:
> > > What could possibly go wrong?
> > >
> > > -James Holton
> > > MAD Scientist
> > >
> > > On 6/29/2020 6:17 PM, Edward A. Berry wrote:
> > > > Now can we get rid of all the superfluous disks in our
> RAID? Or at
> > > > least not replace them when they fail?
> > > >
> > > > On 06/29/2020 06:24 PM, Andreas Förster wrote:
> > > >> I like to think that the reflections I carefully measured
> at high
> > > >> multiplicity are not redundant, which the dictionary on my
> > computer
> > > >> defines as "not or no longer needed or useful;
> superfluous" and
> > the
> > > >> American Heritage Dictionary as "exceeding what is
> necessary or
> > > >> natural; superfluous" and "needlessly repetitive; verbose".
> > > >>
> > > >> Please don't use the term Needless repetitivity in your Table
> > 1. It
> > > >> sends the wrong message. Multiplicity is good.
> > > >>
> > > >> All best.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Andreas
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 12:03 AM James Holton
> <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> > <mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> > > >> <mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> <mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>>> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> I have found that the use of "redundancy" vs
> "multiplicity"
> > > >> correlates very well with the speaker's favorite processing
> > > >> software. The Denzo/HKL program scalepack outputs
> "redundancy",
> > > >> whereas scala/aimless and other more Europe-centric programs
> > output
> > > >> "multiplicity".
> > > >>
> > > >> At least it is not as bad as "intensity", which is so
> > ambiguous
> > > >> as to be almost useless as a word on its own.
> > > >>
> > > >> -James Holton
> > > >> MAD Scientist
> > > >>
> > > >> On 6/24/2020 10:27 AM, Bernhard Rupp wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> > Oh, and some of us prefer the word 'multiplicity'
> ;-0____
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Hmmm…maybe not. ‘Multiplicity’ in crystallography is
> context
> > > >>> sensitive, and not uniquely defined. It can refer to ____
> > > >>>
> > > >>> 1. the position multiplicity (number of equivalent
> sites per
> > > >>> unit cell, aka Wyckoff-Multiplicity), the only (!) cif
> use of
> > > >>> multiplicity____
> > > >>> 2. the multiplicity of the reflection, which means the
> > > >>> superposition of reflections with the same /d/ (mostly
> powder
> > > >>> diffraction) ____
> > > >>> 3. the multiplicity of observations, aka
> redundancy.____
> > > >>>
> > > >>> While (a) and (b) are clearly defined, (c) is an
> arbitrary
> > > >>> experimental number.____
> > > >>>
> > > >>> How from (a) real space symmetry follows (b) in
> reciprocal
> > space
> > > >>> (including the epsilon zones, another ‘multiplicity’) is
> > explained
> > > >>> here ____
> > > >>>
> > > >>> https://scripts.iucr.org/cgi-bin/paper?a14080
> > > >>>
> >
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://scripts.iucr.org/cgi-bin/paper?a14080__;!!GobTDDpD7A!Z-SrnEqSZwQOXWOwbMCkZ1GB3fvdFuQ5lzYUYwQdUVTCALc3j9O3xqX7-s72_nF7$>
> >
> > > >>> ____
> > > >>>
> > > >>> and also on page 306 in BMC.____
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Too much multiplicity might create duplicity… ____
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Cheers, BR____
> > > >>>
> > > >>> __ __
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Jon Cooper____
> > > >>>
> > > >>> __ __
> > > >>>
> > > >>> On 23 Jun 2020 22:04, "Peat, Tom (Manufacturing,
> Parkville)"
> > > >>> <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> > <mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>>> wrote:____
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I would just like to point out that for those of us
> > who have
> > > >>> worked too many times with P1 or P21 that even 360 degrees
> > will not
> > > >>> give you 'super' anomalous differences. ____
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I'm not a minimalist when it comes to data-
> redundancy
> > is a
> > > >>> good thing to have. ____
> > > >>>
> > > >>> cheers, tom ____
> > > >>>
> > > >>> __ __
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Tom Peat
> > > >>> Proteins Group
> > > >>> Biomedical Program, CSIRO
> > > >>> 343 Royal Parade
> > > >>> Parkville, VIC, 3052
> > > >>> +613 9662 7304
> > > >>> +614 57 539 419
> > > >>> [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> > <mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>> ____
> > > >>>
> > > >>> __ __
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > --
> > > >>>
> > > >>> *From:*CCP4 bulletin board
> <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> > <mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> > > >>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]> <mailto:[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>>>
> > on behalf of
> > > >>> [log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> > <mailto:[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> > > >>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> > <mailto:[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>>
> > > >>> <[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> > <mailto:[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> > > >>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> > <mailto:[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>>>
> > > >>> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 24, 2020 1:10 AM
> > > >>> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> > <mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> <mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> > <mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>>
> > > >>> <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> <mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> > <mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> <mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>>>
> > > >>> *Subject:* Re: [ccp4bb] number of frames to get
> a full
> > > >>> dataset? ____
> > > >>>
> > > >>> ____
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Someone told me there is a cubic space group
> where you
> > can
> > > >>> get away with something like 11 degrees of data. It would be
> > > >>> interesting if that's correct. These minimum ranges for data
> > > >>> collection rely on the crystal being pre-oriented, which is
> > > >>> unheard-of these days, although they can help if someone is
> > nagging
> > > >>> you to get off the beam line or if your diffraction fades
> > quickly.
> > > >>> Going for 180 degrees always makes sense for a well-behaved
> > crystal,
> > > >>> or 360 degrees if you want super anomalous differences.
> Hope this
> > > >>> helps a bit. ____
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Jon Cooper____
> > > >>>
> > > >>> __ __
> > > >>>
> > > >>> On 23 Jun 2020 07:29, Andreas Förster
> > > >>> <[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> > <mailto:[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> > <mailto:[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> > <mailto:[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>>>
> > > >>> wrote:____
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Hi Murpholino,____
> > > >>>
> > > >>> __ __
> > > >>>
> > > >>> in my opinion (*), the question is neither
> number of
> > > >>> frames nor degrees. The only thing that matters to your
> > crystal is
> > > >>> dose. How many photons does your crystal take before it
> dies?
> > > >>> Consequently, the question to ask is How best to use
> photons.
> > Some
> > > >>> people have done exactly that.____
> > > >>>
> > > >>> https://doi.org/10.1107/S2059798319003528
> > > >>>
> >
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1107/S2059798319003528__;!!GobTDDpD7A!Z-SrnEqSZwQOXWOwbMCkZ1GB3fvdFuQ5lzYUYwQdUVTCALc3j9O3xqX7-hiQXkxe$>____
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> All best.____
> > > >>>
> > > >>> __ __
> > > >>>
> > > >>> __ __
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Andreas____
> > > >>>
> > > >>> __ __
> > > >>>
> > > >>> __ __
> > > >>>
> > > >>> (*) Disclaimer: I benefit when you use
> PILATUS or
> > EIGER
> > > >>> - but I want you to use them to your advantage.____
> > > >>>
> > > >>> __ __
> > > >>>
> > > >>> __ __
> > > >>>
> > > >>> __ __
> > > >>>
> > > >>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 12:04 AM Murpholino
> Peligro
> > > >>> <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> <mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> > <mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> <mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>>>
> > wrote:____
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Hi.
> > > >>> Quick question...____
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I have seen *somewhere* that to get a 'full
> > dataset
> > > >>> we need to collect n frames':____
> > > >>>
> > > >>> at least 180 frames if symmetry is X____
> > > >>>
> > > >>> at least 90 frames if symmetry is Y____
> > > >>>
> > > >>> at least 45 frames if symmetry is Z____
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Can somebody point where is *somewhere*?
> ____
> > > >>>
> > > >>> __ __
> > > >>>
> > > >>> ...also...____
> > > >>>
> > > >>> what other factors can change n... besides
> > symmetry
> > > >>> and radiation damage?____
> > > >>>
> > > >>> __ __
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Thanks____
> > > >>>
> > > >>> __ __
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > ----------
> > > >>>
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> >
> > > >>> ____
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> -- ____
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Andreas Förster, Ph.D.____
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Application Scientist Crystallography, Area
> Sales
> > > >>> Manager Asia & Pacific____
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Phone: +41 56 500 21 00| Direct: +41 56 500
> 21 76|
> > > >>> Email: [log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> > <mailto:[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> > > >>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]
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> > <mailto:[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>>____
> > > >>>
> > > >>> DECTRIS Ltd. | Taefernweg 1 | 5405
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> > > >>>
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> > > >>>
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> > > >>>
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> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > --
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> >
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