HE are only defining the boundary of the listing where they legally can - in others, where curtilage would have to be decided, you still get a point.

Chris Webster
Somerset Historic Environment Record
Somerset Heritage Centre
Brunel Way
Taunton
TA2 6SF

01823 347434
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________________________________________
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Ben Wallace <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: 21 March 2017 12:15
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Land Registry and LLC datasets

Giles,

One thought, and I am not sure how this fits into all this, but most recent listings by Historic England depict polygons on the maps not points and they seem to represent the footprint of the extant structure above ground, mainly mapped to OS Mastermap. So does this mean HE have already adopted this approach and therefore it is fine for anyone else to do the same?
Also as HE are the owners of the Listed Building dataset then whatever anyone else produces will not be seen as the definitive version so should anyone else be producing versions of the data at all?
Here in Warwickshire we have moved more and more to using the NHLE to check designated heritage assets in the area rather than rely on our out of date copy. What would be nice would be a WMS feed of them all to show directly on our GIS, something I have raised with HE (through my involvement with HIAS) and I know others have raised this with HE as well.

Ben

Ben Wallace
(Historic Environment Record Manager)
BA (EU) Hons, MA, MCIfA

Warwickshire Historic Environment Record
Archaeological Information and Advice (AIA),
Landscape, Ecology and Historic Environment
Heritage and Environment,
Community Services,
Communities

Warwickshire County Council

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On 21 March 2017 at 10:20, Giles Carey <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
Dear all
I have replied directly to Rob but thought I would share my comments for the benefit of all who may well be having to deal with this issue either directly or indirectly.

In Shropshire we were made aware of this issue by our colleagues in Land Charges in November 2016, following the publication in June 2016 of the migration guide:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/local-land-charges-local-authority-pre-digitisation-and-migration-guide/local-land-charges-local-authority-pre-digitisation-and-migration-guide

I subsequently raised the issue with colleagues in Historic England and after a few follow ups the issue was assigned to the legal team. In late January they undertook to pursue this at the highest level with the land registry and I understand have brokered a meeting within the last month, although I have not yet heard the outcome of this - although they have said that they will share it with the wider HER community.

There is some conflation between curtilage and building footprints within the documentation that the land registry have put out, and we have been keen that they separate out the two discussions - namely digitisation of footprint from digitisation of curtilage; the latter has an important legal definition that has been tested in both case law and the appeals system (including a number locally!), and which Historic England have emphasised cannot be dealt with algorithmically, but rather is "always a question of fact and degree."

Our attention in Shropshire has been on looking at the representation of footprints of listed buildings, taking a cue from the pre-digitisation guidance "In line with guidance in the Pre-Digitisation Guide "Digital data from Historic England is usually in the form of point data. Land Registry require a spatial representation to be supplied appropriate to the type of real world object being listed."

There are significant issues with our data to meeting this aspiration, and we have undertaken some pilot work to explore the scale of the issue. It is a long story involving data coming from 5 districts with very different approaches in 2009 when Shropshire became unitary but essentially boils down to at least 100 days work to deal with the higher priority cases to meet this level of spatial representation.

Our view, however, is that we cannot move this forward until we receive 'official' notification from Historic England that they endorse local authorities taking such an approach when the national dataset is supplied as point data only. It would essentially result in the creation of a surrogate digital dataset to be queried algorithmically and used in a manner removed from both the data supplier and the LPA.

I am hoping for some news soon from Historic England soon as theoretically implementation of the transfer of the local land registry to the Land Registry is scheduled to occur as early as October 2017.

I don't know whether this is helpful but nice to hear that other HERs are now picking this issue up and I feel like less of a lone voice!

Kind regards

Giles

Giles Carey
Historic Environment Records Officer, Historic Environment Team, Shropshire Council | 01743 254619<tel:01743%20254619>

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