Hi All,
The whole changing place / space to change issue is becoming a potential problem. Anybody who takes an existing relatively compliant corner layout and changes it to a peninsular is creating problems with building regulations in my view. It would be a material alteration and clearly less satisfactory so should not be permitted. So companies and campaigners are giving really bad advice if they suggest this. As well as disadvantaging more people than it benefits.
There are very active and vocal campaign groups (rightly so) and commercial companies driving the issue forward (profit motive). I read one news article where a local authority councillor committed to review all public accessible WC's in the district to convert them all to CP's. Let's hope somewhere in the authority they realised what a bad idea that would be.
I also find much of the campaigning is driven by parents with children who require such facilities. Fair enough, and I imagine that these hybrids might well be just about workable for children and parents (smaller than adults and possibly untrained in safe people handling?). Are they big enough for safe use by adults with professional carers (hopefully) ? I doubt it.
At the same time, the 12m/sq can be difficult to achieve in existing buildings and I have long believed that they will work from 9.5m/sq upwards, providing they are well laid out. Use of wall mounted bench is beneficial in this scenario to free up space.
I also think the numbers that campaign groups quote are overstating the need. i.e. 6.5million with a bowel problem does not equate to 6.5million who need a CP or StC. The typical figure of 250,000 is also questionable in my view - I believe it comes from a paper by Whitetop Research Unit in Glasgow - its states an up to figure - http://www.changing-places.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=X7QNBxsyhMU=&tabid=67 and in my view seems to lump people into changing places potential users without sufficient detail. Prior to this paper I believe people where quoting circa 85,000.
Please don’t take this the wrong way. I have long been a supporter of CP's, done well and in the right locations. I can foresee a situation where a well-intentioned service provider implements an StC expecting lots of extra business, only to find that they have complaints about the lack of a corner layout, issues with building control and potentially bad pressure.
(sorry for the rant).
Regards
Martin
-----Original Message-----
From: Accessibuilt list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Vincent West
Sent: 18 January 2017 10:56
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Changing Places/Space to Change
Hi All,
Jane is absolutely right - the Space to Change layout as shown does not comply with Building Regs as an accessible toilet - more importantly it does not fulfil the core function of an accessible toilet for a wheelchair user - that is being able to use the loo and wash and dry their hands before transferring back to their wheelchair, which requires the layout that has been agreed after endless rounds of discussion between disabled people and designers.
While I don’t doubt the good intentions behind this StC layout it sadly ignores the fact that the minimum size and layout of both accessible toilets and Changing Places toilets are not accidental. Neither is it an accident that the British Standard states categorically that provision of a CP toilet must be over and above provision of an accessible toilet and not instead of - because they are entirely different beasts - and this half-way house layout does not fully meet the requirements of either.
I’m afraid the claim on the Cos-o-mat website that: “Space to Change builds on the basic provision of a wheelchair-accessible toilet” is simply untrue and Clos-o-mat should really take it down.
If this were a real life situation where there were space to increase the size of an accessible loo but not enough to install a CP loo I would say that my bottom line would be that the detailed layout and provision of an accessible loo as per BS8300 must be adhered to fully [never found one yet however] and only then could other items be designed in so long as they do not impinge on the use of the standard loo - so yes a changing bench and ceiling hoist [not mobile hoists - dangerous beasts and would definitely make the space harder or impossible to use for independent wheelchair users] but only if they still leave the minimum 2.2 x 1.5 clear space for manoeuvring.
Regards,
Vin
Vin West MBE
Chair
Arfon Access Group
01286880761
07771536760
Glyn Dwr
Llandwrog Uchaf
Caernarfon
LL54 7RA
[log in to unmask]
> On 17 Jan 2017, at 13:06, Jane Simpson Access <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> Jan, the space to change shows a peninsula WC and is therefore not suitable to add a changing bed and hoist into an independent accessible WC. In the same way baby change facilities should not be in accessible WC's turning the unisex accessible WC into a changing places is not appropriate either.
>
> In terms of smaller venues, this needs to be looked at on a project by project basis but personally would be unhappy about reducing the standard size.
>
> Regards Jane
>
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Accessibuilt list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf
> Of Jan Loveless
> Sent: 17 January 2017 12:04
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Changing Places/Space to Change
>
> Hi everyone. I wondered if we could have a discussion about these facilities? I have been looking at Space to Change as many places find it impossible to either afford or make the space for a full CP facility. Whilst AD M and BS8300 give an indication of the type of scenarios where a CP facility is desirable, many smaller organisations other than those defined in the guidance, are, in my experience, being asked to put them in and, with the best will in the world, are struggling to know how to respond to this demand in a reasonable way. The Space to Change (http://www.clos-o-mat.com/index.php/away-from-home/space-to-change.html) information on the ClosoMat website states:
>
> "Space To Change toilets bridge the gap between typical ‘Document M’ accessible toilets and the ultimate, a Changing Places facility (see our Changing Places section).
>
> A Space To Change toilet is meant as a minor upgrade/ refurbishment, to overcome the issues campaigners consistently face when asking for Changing Places: issues of space and cost. Legally providers have to offer at least a wheelchair-accessible toilet*, all they need to do is add into that an adult-sized changing bench and hoist."
>
> However, this, I think, minimises some of the issues. Most accessible toilets are not 3m x 2.5m and, if they are, it is not a question of simply adding a changing bench and hoist. The basin is in the wrong position for people to be able to wash and dry their hands from the loo (if this is also a unisex accessible loo) and I'm not convinced that the hinged rails are designed to be pulled sideways if you're doing a sideways transfer from a wheelchair.
> I wondered if people had any thoughts on this as I think a lot of organisations would like to do something to facilitate adult/child changing but are struggling with this.
> Kind regards
> Jan
>
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