Re Dylan's politics: if any white American (or British poet) wrote anything on American racism as excoriating as the handful of songs Dylan wrote or performed on African American history - Death of Emmett Till, Only a Pawn in their Game, Hattie Carroll, Auction Block, Hurricane, Blind Willie McTell - I'd like to know...
________________________________________
From: British & Irish poets [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of BRITISH-IRISH-POETS automatic digest system [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 16 October 2016 00:00
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS Digest - 14 Oct 2016 to 15 Oct 2016 (#2016-204)
There are 16 messages totaling 2416 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Dylan (10)
2. Poetry Salzburg Review 29
3. A few thoughts on lyric (5)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 08:49:15 +0100
From: David Bircumshaw <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Dylan
I'm coming to conclusion that the really unique thing here is that we have
a plagiarist who sues other people for breach of copyright. Wow, that's
really something special. Anyone know of any other instances?
On 14 October 2016 at 23:18, Sean Carey <
[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> It is me getting doddery Robin
>
> sc
>
> Turn that frown upside down
>
> On Friday, 14 October 2016, Robin Hamilton <robin.hamilton3@
> VIRGINMEDIA.COM> wrote:
>
> Sean,
>
> I think I've managed to put my foot in it again.
>
> I said:
>
> "Teach me to throw sarcastic remarks around, when they can come back and
> bite you -- "Learn something new every day." I did, and I've you to thank."
>
> ... and you responded:
>
> On sarcastic remarks I hope I do not teach anyone given it is termed "the
> lowest form of wit". Only an offer I could not refuse could lure me out of
> my bunker to some new School of Sarcastic Sounding Off! But I will not head
> to Sparty Lea to found a new Black Mountain College Robin.
>
> In full, my earlier statement should have read: ""[That will] Teach me to
> throw sarcastic remarks around, when they can come back and bite you, [as
> my earlier sark just did] -- "Learn something new every day." I did, and
> I've you to thank [for directing me to this interesting area which I hadn't
> encountered before]."
>
> ... or mibee I'm simply making confusion worse confounded.
>
> :-)
>
> Best,
>
> Robin
>
>
--
David Joseph Bircumshaw
The Animal Subsides http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw
Tumblr: http://zantikus.tumblr.com/
twitter: http://twitter.com/bucketshave
blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com/
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 09:58:34 +0100
From: Tim Allen <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Dylan
Hi Maighread, yes. Agree. But this award was always going to be controversial, which is good - got people thinking about stuff.
Cheers
Tim
On 14 Oct 2016, at 20:05, Maighread Medbh wrote:
> Dylan never touched me deeply, but like most people, I grew up involved with his sounds and lyrics at some level. He's been an intrinsic part of the social, sonic and verbal ambience of the past 50 years. His production has been enormous, his versatility and endurance remarkable. If it's 'genius' to represent the spirit of the age, then maybe he's a genius.
>
> At first I thought that perhaps there should be a Nobel Prize for music, which might be more appropriate, because it seemed to me that the literary task is very different from that of a singer/songwriter. However, the reason given by the Committee changed my mind. I think he has indeed "created new poetic expressions within the great American song tradition". You could, of course, also say that Eminem has done that, and many others, but Dylan has proved himself relevant, durable, meaningful, clever and liberating over time, even improving in some ways, I think. The way so many people speak of him, it's as if he's a kind of abiding poetic brother for a multitude.
>
>
>
> On 14 October 2016 at 16:52, Tim Allen <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> I watched that too and was actually impressed by her performance - I can see why she is popular. She has the occasional good line too but you really need to listen carefully to catch them. Unfortunately the musical framing is not one I've ever been enthused by, but that's my failing not hers.
>
> On 14 Oct 2016, at 16:08, Jeffrey Side wrote:
>
>> I saw Kate Tempest on TV recently performing some of her work, and was struck by how much it reminded me of the poets I saw at these 1990s readings. Yet she is held by some to be some sort of new “poetic hope”.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Máighréad Medbh
> 42 Boroimhe Alder,
> Swords, Co. Dublin, Ireland.
> Web: www.maighreadmedbh.ie
> Phone: 353 87 2894744
> Poet, Writer.
> --------------------------
> Most Recent Books:
> Savage Solitude
> http://www.dedaluspress.com/auth/76
> Pagan to the Core
> http://www.maighreadmedbh.ie/published-books.htm#pagan
>
> ******
> The Body Coat and The Coal-black Sea (E-books)
> http://www.smashwords.com/books/search?query=maighread+medbh&covers=on
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 11:26:07 +0200
From: Wolfgang Görtschacher
<[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Poetry Salzburg Review 29
/Poetry Salzburg Review/29
Editorial (Wolfgang Görtschacher)
Poetry
James Aitchison | William Alderson | Jeffrey Alfier | Tobi Alfier | C.
B. Anderson | Helen Ashley | David Attwooll | Mike Barlow | Willis
Barnstone | William Bedford | Lana Bella | Partridge Boswell | John
Brewster | John Burnside | Ian Clarke | Paul Connolly | Amir Darwish |
William Virgil Davis | Karen Dennison | Robert Etty | Blair Ewing |
Elaine Feinstein | Simon French | Frances Galleymore | Norbert
Hirschhorn | Katherine Horrex | Timothy Houghton | Keith Hutson |
Nicolas Jacobs | Honorée Fanonne Jeffers | Alan Jenkins | Antony Johae |
John Kinsella | Frank Klaassen | Bernard Kops | Nick Lantz | Julie
Maclean | Mark Macrossan | Caroline Maldonado | Patricia McCarthy |
Daniel Thomas Moran | Lee Nash | Caroline Natzler | Wendy Orr | William
Oxley | Justin Quinn | Paul Rossiter | India Russell | Ian Seed | Askold
Skalsky | Ian C. Smith | Liane Strauss | Sarah Stutt | Charles Wilkinson
| Robert Wrigley
Translations
Marcel Beyer (transl. by Karen Leeder )
Catullus (transl. by Blair Ewing)
Bohuslav Reynek (transl. by Justin Quinn)
Interview
John Burnside interviewed by Wolfgang Görtschacher & David Malcolm
Prose
Vuyelwa Carlin reviewing Elaine Feinstein, Honorée Honorée Fanonne
Jeffers, F. T. Prince, Bernard Kops, and Owen Gallagher
Piotr Florczyk reviewing David Attwooll, Liane Strauss, Fani
Papageorgiou, and Jan Carew
Lindsay Macgregor reviewing Willis Barnstone, Paul Rossiter, Kate Foley,
and Amir Darwish
Caitríona O'Reilly reviewing David Cooke, John Brewster, Alan Jenkins,
John Kinsella, and Justin Quinn
Cover artwork by Roland H. Heyder
www.poetrysalzburg.com <http://www.poetrysalzburg.com>
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 11:02:56 +0100
From: Patrick McManus <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Dylan
gosh it's even woken some of the doddery old Brit Po's humpfering and
haaharing who see their patch being invaded!!!:-)
On 15/10/2016 09:58, Tim Allen wrote:
> Hi Maighread, yes. Agree. But this award was always going to be
> controversial, which is good - got people thinking about stuff.
>
> Cheers
>
> Tim
>
> On 14 Oct 2016, at 20:05, Maighread Medbh wrote:
>
>> Dylan never touched me deeply, but like most people, I grew up
>> involved with his sounds and lyrics at some level. He's been an
>> intrinsic part of the social, sonic and verbal ambience of the past
>> 50 years. His production has been enormous, his versatility and
>> endurance remarkable. If it's 'genius' to represent the spirit of the
>> age, then maybe he's a genius.
>>
>> At first I thought that perhaps there should be a Nobel Prize for
>> music, which might be more appropriate, because it seemed to me that
>> the literary task is very different from that of a singer/songwriter.
>> However, the reason given by the Committee changed my mind. I think
>> he has indeed "created new poetic expressions within the great
>> American song tradition". You could, of course, also say that Eminem
>> has done that, and many others, but Dylan has proved himself
>> relevant, durable, meaningful, clever and liberating over time, even
>> improving in some ways, I think. The way so many people speak of him,
>> it's as if he's a kind of abiding poetic brother for a multitude.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 14 October 2016 at 16:52, Tim Allen
>> <[log in to unmask]
>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
>>
>> I watched that too and was actually impressed by her performance
>> - I can see why she is popular. She has the occasional good line
>> too but you really need to listen carefully to catch them.
>> Unfortunately the musical framing is not one I've ever been
>> enthused by, but that's my failing not hers.
>>
>> On 14 Oct 2016, at 16:08, Jeffrey Side wrote:
>>
>>> I saw Kate Tempest on TV recently performing some of her work,
>>> and was struck by how much it reminded me of the poets I saw at
>>> these 1990s readings. Yet she is held by some to be some sort of
>>> new “poetic hope”.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Máighréad Medbh
>> 42 Boroimhe Alder,
>> Swords, Co. Dublin, Ireland.
>> Web: www.maighreadmedbh.ie <http://www.maighreadmedbh.ie/>
>> Phone: 353 87 2894744
>> Poet, Writer.
>> --------------------------
>> Most Recent Books:
>> Savage Solitude
>> http://www.dedaluspress.com/auth/76
>> Pagan to the Core
>> http://www.maighreadmedbh.ie/published-books.htm#pagan
>>
>> ******
>> The Body Coat and The Coal-black Sea (E-books)
>> http://www.smashwords.com/books/search?query=maighread+medbh&covers=on
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 12:31:25 +0100
From: Jeffrey Side <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Dylan
Well said, Maighread.
On 14 Oct 2016, at 20:05, Maighread Medbh wrote:
Dylan never touched me deeply, but like most people, I grew up involved with his sounds and lyrics at some level. He's been an intrinsic part of the social, sonic and verbal ambience of the past 50 years. His production has been enormous, his versatility and endurance remarkable. If it's 'genius' to represent the spirit of the age, then maybe he's a genius.
At first I thought that perhaps there should be a Nobel Prize for music, which might be more appropriate, because it seemed to me that the literary task is very different from that of a singer/songwriter. However, the reason given by the Committee changed my mind. I think he has indeed "created new poetic expressions within the great American song tradition". You could, of course, also say that Eminem has done that, and many others, but Dylan has proved himself relevant, durable, meaningful, clever and liberating over time, even improving in some ways, I think. The way so many people speak of him, it's as if he's a kind of abiding poetic brother for a multitude.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 13:10:09 +0100
From: Jeffrey Side <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Dylan
Sean, to say that Dylan should only write songs from a rich person’s perspective because he is rich assumes that poetry is always confessional. This idea of the confessional and “sincere” poet as being the ideal of what a poet should be, only really came into predominance with Wordsworth, so it is a relatively new concept in poetry. To use it as the measure for acceptable poetry or songs is, I think, a little too constraining. As Tim said in an earlier post: ‘Dylan is often a story-teller, but there is always an emotional bind between the story and his delivery of it’. Besides, it would be very boring (and alienating for non-rich audiences) if rich songwriters only wrote songs that reflected their current lifestyles.
On 14 Oct 2016, at 25:09, Sean Carey wrote:
In "Time Out Of Mind" we have the theme of a broken hearted song writer down on his luck. If any other equally megarich artist did this he would have had little sympathy. I would accept the young bluesmen or women writing such lyrics but not Dylan.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 12:13:04 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Dylan
I wanted the prize to go to Adonis.
I would say it was 'enlarging choice', widening the idea of Lit. Perhaps the performance vein of poetry will someday get a Nobel nod.
Jim Finnegan
860-508-2810
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 05:54:32 -0500
From: Kent Johnson <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Dylan
So is Dylan the most inspired choice the Nobel committee has ever made, or the most ridiculous one?
(It has to be one of those.)
-----------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 09:24:38 -0700
From: Jaime Robles <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: A few thoughts on lyric
Most of you have though these thoughts, I’m guessing. http://jaimerobles.blogspot.com
Nothing about Dylan, except perhaps ideas of poetry and loss and that of music as a kind of corrective for pain.
Best wishes,
Jaime
jaimerobles.com
______________________________
QS: Let’s return to poetics.
JR: When did we leave?
—From the conversation between Quinta Slef and Joan Retallack, The Poethical Wager
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 17:55:54 +0100
From: David Bircumshaw <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Dylan
I would have thought Adonis a better choice. Sweden does have a tradition
of proletarian poetry and I can imagine that the US blues and folk
traditions against which Dylan operated would seem similar.
On 15 October 2016 at 17:13, <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
> I wanted the prize to go to Adonis.
>
> I would say it was 'enlarging choice', widening the idea of Lit. Perhaps
> the performance vein of poetry will someday get a Nobel nod.
>
> Jim Finnegan
> 860-508-2810
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 05:54:32 -0500
> From: Kent Johnson <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Dylan
>
>
>
> So is Dylan the most inspired choice the Nobel committee has ever made, or
> the most ridiculous one?
> (It has to be one of those.)
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
--
David Joseph Bircumshaw
The Animal Subsides http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw
Tumblr: http://zantikus.tumblr.com/
twitter: http://twitter.com/bucketshave
blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com/
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 10:40:11 -0700
From: Jaime Robles <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: A few thoughts on lyric
Should mention, I guess, that this excerpt was part of a thesis, so it’s a tad on the academic side. Haha. But not crushingly so ...
Best wishes,
Jaime
jaimerobles.com
______________________________
QS: Let’s return to poetics.
JR: When did we leave?
—From the conversation between Quinta Slef and Joan Retallack, The Poethical Wager
> On Oct 15, 2016, at 9:24 AM, Jaime Robles <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> Most of you have though these thoughts, I’m guessing. http://jaimerobles.blogspot.com <http://jaimerobles.blogspot.com/>
>
> Nothing about Dylan, except perhaps ideas of poetry and loss and that of music as a kind of corrective for pain.
>
> Best wishes,
> Jaime
>
> jaimerobles.com <http://jaimerobles.com/>
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________
>
> QS: Let’s return to poetics.
> JR: When did we leave?
>
> —From the conversation between Quinta Slef and Joan Retallack, The Poethical Wager
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 19:19:44 +0100
From: Jeffrey Side <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: A few thoughts on lyric
That was intereseting, Jaime. I'd like to read more.
On Sat, 15 Oct 2016 10:40, Jaime Robles wrote:
Should mention, I guess, that this excerpt was part of a thesis, so it’s a tad on the academic side. Haha. But not crushingly so ...
Best wishes,
Jaime
jaimerobles.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 11:31:00 -0700
From: Jaime Robles <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: A few thoughts on lyric
Thanks, Jeffrey. I’m going to be posting bits of this on my blog site over the next few months.
Recently Psychological Perspectives published a chapter. Also, several of the essays have been published online. I can backchannel you links, if you like.
Best wishes,
Jaime
jaimerobles.com
______________________________
QS: Let’s return to poetics.
JR: When did we leave?
—From the conversation between Quinta Slef and Joan Retallack, The Poethical Wager
> On Oct 15, 2016, at 11:19 AM, Jeffrey Side <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> That was intereseting, Jaime. I'd like to read more.
>
>
>
> On Sat, 15 Oct 2016 10:40, Jaime Robles wrote:
>
> Should mention, I guess, that this excerpt was part of a thesis, so it’s a tad on the academic side. Haha. But not crushingly so ...
>
> Best wishes,
> Jaime
>
> jaimerobles.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 14:43:14 -0400
From: Sean Carey <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Dylan
Confessionalism still goes on but not in a Berryman or Lowell context & looking back on that genre now it had virtues. Many poets of the younger generation are quite open on their lives & times & Andrea Brady i.e. does not hold back or Sutherland. They do it in a very post Prynne mode of poetics with Brady probably much more open than Keston. Contrast Brady's work on motherhood to Eavan Boland's "Night Feed" & despite the time lapse the total honesty is startling. Sutherland even in his SM orientated work does not reach this level of honesty. Clouding the poems with political discourse avoids the core issues he is exploring. This is very obvious when one sees him read on film or in person.
At a major festival many moons ago Dylan insisted on being paid in hard cash which contrasted to many other iconic artists on the weekend bill with him. His letting down of Phil Ochs in his times of hardship can never be defended. Ochs merited far better in his time of homelessness which many have never experienced. Of course nobody with chemical problems is easy to handle but Phil was not a violent man. While his dodging of Dominic Behan who rightly confronted his lifting of "The Patriot Game" is a blemish on Dylan.
Why Dylan or Springsteen cannot write about their real positions in society I do find irksome. Ok as Tim said fables & yarns make up a lot of their lyrical output but that is no excuse. Indeed both men could learn a lot from rap artists who shoot from the hip & don no masks. Often performing poets are simply playing the theatre card but few pull it out. Many are rooted in conservative poetic role models from eras now history. Many modern celebrity icons make no excuses for their wealth & fame & do full interviews. They account for their bank balances in a very honest manner & I welcome it.
We all are very quick to assume all political figures should account for everything plus thinking every TD or MP is only in it for the money. In real terms a post political era started a fair few years ago when all politics became a brand. But can anyone explain Dylan's political views or his attitude to any current issue? Did he call himself Bob Dylan after Dylan Thomas or Matt Dillon? Does Bob pay taxes or contribute to any charity? Has Bob opened up his many mansions to migrants or housed any homeless person? Was the motor bike crash a real event or an escape from the burden of fame? What is Bob Dylan's attitude to women given his lyrical tirades against women he claimed to love?
With a Lowell or Berryman there would have been no problem with these ?s or indeed Norman Mailer no fan of Bob Dylan. His quip on if Dylan is a writer Norm was a basketball player has shades of Antin on Lowell.
Anyway there we go on Bob Dylan.
Cheers
sc
On guys or gals who hung out in the Rat Pack era they never hid the fact they were making a fortune. They mixed with rogues as well as angels in Hollywood or Vegas. Dylan seems to avoid any "friends" since he retreated to New York State. His skill in avoiding the MSM & popular media is unique in my memory for such a major star.
Turn that frown upside down
On Saturday, 15 October 2016, Jeffrey Side <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Sean, to say that Dylan should only write songs from a rich person’s perspective because he is rich assumes that poetry is always confessional. This idea of the confessional and “sincere” poet as being the ideal of what a poet should be, only really came into predominance with Wordsworth, so it is a relatively new concept in poetry. To use it as the measure for acceptable poetry or songs is, I think, a little too constraining. As Tim said in an earlier post: ‘Dylan is often a story-teller, but there is always an emotional bind between the story and his delivery of it’. Besides, it would be very boring (and alienating for non-rich audiences) if rich songwriters only wrote songs that reflected their current lifestyles.
On 14 Oct 2016, at 25:09, Sean Carey wrote:
In "Time Out Of Mind" we have the theme of a broken hearted song writer down on his luck. If any other equally megarich artist did this he would have had little sympathy. I would accept the young bluesmen or women writing such lyrics but not Dylan.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 19:49:17 +0100
From: Jeffrey Side <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: A few thoughts on lyric
Yes, Jaime, send links to me at [log in to unmask]
On Sat, 15 Oct 2016 11:31, Jaime Robles wrote:
Thanks, Jeffrey. I’m going to be posting bits of this on my blog site over the next few months.
Recently Psychological Perspectives published a chapter. Also, several of the essays have been published online. I can backchannel you links, if you like.
Best wishes,
Jaime
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 20:39:17 +0100
From: Jeffrey Side <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Dylan
Sean, it all depends on what view you have about art. If you see the artist’s sole reason to produce art as being “autobiographical”, then what you say about Dylan’s lack of autobiographical content in his songs is understandable. I don’t think he is necessarily motivated by autobiographical considerations.
As to his personal attitude in how he prefers to be paid for his performances, I don’t think that should have any bearing on how audiences should respond to his work. If he prefers to be paid in cash, as you say (assuming you are correct), that, in my view, is not an important factor in evaluating the merits or demerits of his work.
It might be to you, that such considerations are important because you view his reason for producing art as being autobiographical, and, therefore, any aspects of his private life that contradict the sentiments of his songs, to you, suggest that he is a hypocrite, or morally lacking in some sense. But, as I say, I don’t see him as having an autobiographical muse, so to speak.
In my view, works of art should always exist independently of their creator. I have never considered the concept of an “authorial voice” as being of any significance to an appreciation of a work of art. When I read a poem, listen to a song, look at a painting; their creators are always far away from my awareness.
I appreciate, though, that not everyone might view art in this way, and so fully respect your position regarding Dylan.
On Sat, Sat, 15 Oct 2016 14:43, Sean Carey wrote:
Confessionalism still goes on but not in a Berryman or Lowell context & looking back on that genre now it had virtues. Many poets of the younger generation are quite open on their lives & times & Andrea Brady i.e. does not hold back or Sutherland. They do it in a very post Prynne mode of poetics with Brady probably much more open than Keston. Contrast Brady's work on motherhood to Eavan Boland's "Night Feed" & despite the time lapse the total honesty is startling. Sutherland even in his SM orientated work does not reach this level of honesty. Clouding the poems with political discourse avoids the core issues he is exploring. This is very obvious when one sees him read on film or in person.
At a major festival many moons ago Dylan insisted on being paid in hard cash which contrasted to many other iconic artists on the weekend bill with him. His letting down of Phil Ochs in his times of hardship can never be defended. Ochs merited far better in his time of homelessness which many have never experienced. Of course nobody with chemical problems is easy to handle but Phil was not a violent man. While his dodging of Dominic Behan who rightly confronted his lifting of "The Patriot Game" is a blemish on Dylan.
Why Dylan or Springsteen cannot write about their real positions in society I do find irksome. Ok as Tim said fables & yarns make up a lot of their lyrical output but that is no excuse. Indeed both men could learn a lot from rap artists who shoot from the hip & don no masks. Often performing poets are simply playing the theatre card but few pull it out. Many are rooted in conservative poetic role models from eras now history. Many modern celebrity icons make no excuses for their wealth & fame & do full interviews. They account for their bank balances in a very honest manner & I welcome it.
We all are very quick to assume all political figures should account for everything plus thinking every TD or MP is only in it for the money. In real terms a post political era started a fair few years ago when all politics became a brand. But can anyone explain Dylan's political views or his attitude to any current issue? Did he call himself Bob Dylan after Dylan Thomas or Matt Dillon? Does Bob pay taxes or contribute to any charity? Has Bob opened up his many mansions to migrants or housed any homeless person? Was the motor bike crash a real event or an escape from the burden of fame? What is Bob Dylan's attitude to women given his lyrical tirades against women he claimed to love?
With a Lowell or Berryman there would have been no problem with these ?s or indeed Norman Mailer no fan of Bob Dylan. His quip on if Dylan is a writer Norm was a basketball player has shades of Antin on Lowell.
Anyway there we go on Bob Dylan.
Cheers
sc
On guys or gals who hung out in the Rat Pack era they never hid the fact they were making a fortune. They mixed with rogues as well as angels in Hollywood or Vegas. Dylan seems to avoid any "friends" since he retreated to New York State. His skill in avoiding the MSM & popular media is unique in my memory for such a major star.
Turn that frown upside down
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 17:27:33 -0400
From: Sean Carey <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Dylan
I suppose my own position on art is that I have to see what the artist is doing or coming from in their work. Often to meet one's icons can be a real letdown with John Lennon's last interview in mind. In that Playboy interview he questioned live gigs as opposed to studio work. In a poetry context very few readers do their work justice bar a few I can recall from Dublin. None of these were big names but my goodness they could perform with real style. Often people like Barry Ahern knock the Beats theatrical aspects compared to the Objectivists - this could apply to music too of course.
The notion of truth in our era has devalued language as nobody quite knows if anyone for example in politics is being honest. But that could apply to trademen or women or the Walmart check out operator. Labels have become meaningless as the century slowly takes shape. The old song "Everybody wants to go to heaven/but nobody wants to die" comes to mind. We impose our values on the past totally misunderstanding many events.
George Oppen sought a sincere aspect in poetry which may still apply but the internet era has been a disappointment. In fact the snail mail era was more exciting with more effort involved. Cid Corman would reply faster from Japan than Joe or Mary Soap in Dublin.
With Dylan I have always had problems & I do not understand the veneration with very little critical views. People like saviours & icons more & more as they blur reality. Sainthood is granted all too easily until the saint falls from grace. I have a vague recall of Dylan's actual situation being in a tabloid or broadsheet a few years ago. But it drew very little attentions though of course Dylan's legal people may have intervened.
The cash for concert was Isle of Wight late sixties or early 1970s. Dylan's henchmen stood close to the event host & waited till all was counted. This from the same man who preached anti violence lyrics & looked like he could not hurt a fly. I like many artists but I enjoy knowing a little about them or I could end up in a Georgia O' Keeffe myth mindset. Georgia was a superb expert on the stock exchange for sales reasons but played the recluse card. She knew when to sell & yet the myth endures but Georgia was far from alone.
In time as with Samuel Beckett the full story of Bob Dylan will emerge & there will be surprises. To cultivate a persona is no easy task & Beckett knew why not to translate De Sade. He presented himself as a hermit but was having one hell of an incarnation & I swallowed the lie.
We live & unlearn perhaps?
Cheers
sc
Turn that frown upside down
On Saturday, 15 October 2016, Jeffrey Side <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Sean, it all depends on what view you have about art. If you see the artist’s sole reason to produce art as being “autobiographical”, then what you say about Dylan’s lack of autobiographical content in his songs is understandable. I don’t think he is necessarily motivated by autobiographical considerations.
As to his personal attitude in how he prefers to be paid for his performances, I don’t think that should have any bearing on how audiences should respond to his work. If he prefers to be paid in cash, as you say (assuming you are correct), that, in my view, is not an important factor in evaluating the merits or demerits of his work.
It might be to you, that such considerations are important because you view his reason for producing art as being autobiographical, and, therefore, any aspects of his private life that contradict the sentiments of his songs, to you, suggest that he is a hypocrite, or morally lacking in some sense. But, as I say, I don’t see him as having an autobiographical muse, so to speak.
In my view, works of art should always exist independently of their creator. I have never considered the concept of an “authorial voice” as being of any significance to an appreciation of a work of art. When I read a poem, listen to a song, look at a painting; their creators are always far away from my awareness.
I appreciate, though, that not everyone might view art in this way, and so fully respect your position regarding Dylan.
On Sat, Sat, 15 Oct 2016 14:43, Sean Carey wrote:
Confessionalism still goes on but not in a Berryman or Lowell context & looking back on that genre now it had virtues. Many poets of the younger generation are quite open on their lives & times & Andrea Brady i.e. does not hold back or Sutherland. They do it in a very post Prynne mode of poetics with Brady probably much more open than Keston. Contrast Brady's work on motherhood to Eavan Boland's "Night Feed" & despite the time lapse the total honesty is startling. Sutherland even in his SM orientated work does not reach this level of honesty. Clouding the poems with political discourse avoids the core issues he is exploring. This is very obvious when one sees him read on film or in person.
At a major festival many moons ago Dylan insisted on being paid in hard cash which contrasted to many other iconic artists on the weekend bill with him. His letting down of Phil Ochs in his times of hardship can never be defended. Ochs merited far better in his time of homelessness which many have never experienced. Of course nobody with chemical problems is easy to handle but Phil was not a violent man. While his dodging of Dominic Behan who rightly confronted his lifting of "The Patriot Game" is a blemish on Dylan.
Why Dylan or Springsteen cannot write about their real positions in society I do find irksome. Ok as Tim said fables & yarns make up a lot of their lyrical output but that is no excuse. Indeed both men could learn a lot from rap artists who shoot from the hip & don no masks. Often performing poets are simply playing the theatre card but few pull it out. Many are rooted in conservative poetic role models from eras now history. Many modern celebrity icons make no excuses for their wealth & fame & do full interviews. They account for their bank balances in a very honest manner & I welcome it.
We all are very quick to assume all political figures should account for everything plus thinking every TD or MP is only in it for the money. In real terms a post political era started a fair few years ago when all politics became a brand. But can anyone explain Dylan's political views or his attitude to any current issue? Did he call himself Bob Dylan after Dylan Thomas or Matt Dillon? Does Bob pay taxes or contribute to any charity? Has Bob opened up his many mansions to migrants or housed any homeless person? Was the motor bike crash a real event or an escape from the burden of fame? What is Bob Dylan's attitude to women given his lyrical tirades against women he claimed to love?
With a Lowell or Berryman there would have been no problem with these ?s or indeed Norman Mailer no fan of Bob Dylan. His quip on if Dylan is a writer Norm was a basketball player has shades of Antin on Lowell.
Anyway there we go on Bob Dylan.
Cheers
sc
On guys or gals who hung out in the Rat Pack era they never hid the fact they were making a fortune. They mixed with rogues as well as angels in Hollywood or Vegas. Dylan seems to avoid any "friends" since he retreated to New York State. His skill in avoiding the MSM & popular media is unique in my memory for such a major star.
Turn that frown upside down
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End of BRITISH-IRISH-POETS Digest - 14 Oct 2016 to 15 Oct 2016 (#2016-204)
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